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Jolly_Penguin
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:30 pm  Existence of Holy Books as Evidence Against Their Claims Reply with quote

It occurs to me that many holy books claim a God exists that is all powerful and that this God has a message he/she/it wants you to know. But it occurs to me that an all powerful God would not have any need for such a limited and primitive means of communication. An all powerful God could simply make us all know what he is there and what he expects of us*. So the books themselves are at best redundant, and almost certainly misleading.

That we do not all know and agree on what God wants, that we have battles between different religions and different sects, tells me that if an all powerful God exists, he must intend all of this confusion. Perhaps he enjoys it. This conflicts with the messages I keep reading in these holy books.

So I wonder, is the mere existence of these holy books evidence against their claim of an all powerful God with a message he wants us to know?

* - Please note that us knowing what he expects of us doesn't in any way restrict our "free will" to obey or not obey what he wants, an in fact that only with knowing what he wants can we truly make any informed choice and have "free will" on the matter.
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 31: Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:38 pm
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Inigo Montoya wrote:

I've asked Ted multiple times for scripture that supports his pre-existence free-will decision- making pre-universe views to no avail. No idea where this comes from

I rather suspect I'm on ignore as many times as my questions go ignored about the decisions we made ..before.. we.. existed



Moderator Comment
In some ways we have to satisfy ourselves with what we can achieve on this website and in debate because there is no god declaring anyone as right or wrong.

As mods we have been prepared to act against people making claims based on personal revelation or telepathy or psychic connections of some kind because those claims are unverifiable. Our standard of verifiable evidence is low (as many can attest). I'm not sure if as mods we have discussed Ted's theology (do we have to) and I have never personally questioned how he has acquired his knowledge. Perhaps Ted can make a post in general chat outlining his beliefs and the evidence for them so that this can be put to rest?

Getting someone to acknowledge their position can lead to frustration and personal remarks. I would advise moving on and not engaging beyond each members own personal desire to get to understand the beliefs of each other and the topic being debated.

Please review the Rules.


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Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 32: Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:27 am
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ttruscott wrote:

Jolly_Penguin wrote:

It occurs to me that many holy books claim a God exists that is all powerful and that this God has a message he/she/it wants you to know.


I know of only one holy book that claims a God exists that is all powerful and that this God has a message he/she/it wants us to know, the Bible. Please reference the others for me, eh?

Quote:
But it occurs to me that an all powerful God would not have any need for such a limited and primitive means of communication. An all powerful God could simply make us all know what he is there and what he expects of us...


The growth of faith is an organic process, slowly building up bit by bit as evidence mounts. A book is a perfect method for contemplation and repeated readings as faith grows. The point which you miss is that the message is not the important part but faith in the messenger. If you have faith in Christ the message becomes clear. If you scorn faith in Him by a steadfast rejection of Him then the message is muddled NO MATTER HOW IT IS PRESENTED TO YOU (generic you): Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; that is, your own interpretation of the message.


Sure, I can name some other books that claim an almighty god. The Book of Mormon, the Koran, Doctrine and Covenants, the Talmud, ... should I keep going?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 33: Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:18 pm
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ttruscott wrote:

Bust Nak wrote:

[Replying to post 10 by ttruscott]

Is this a good place to resume our discussion re: pointlessness of choosing from tabula rasa? Without prior desires "choosing" may as well be a flip of a coin.


Not for me thanks. I found it fruitless...better left as an agreement to disagree.

Your entire theology rests on this. I have clearly demonstrated that it is a logical impossibility to have any likes or dislikes in a pure tabula rasa state, nor is it possible to develop likes and dislikes from a pure tabula rasa origin. You brush this criticism off with no way of disputing or arguing against it. This is either dishonest or deliberately ignorant

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 34: Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:22 pm
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ttruscott wrote:

I can do that but first I want you to tell me why I must go to the work to provide these verses which as an atheist you will just ignore or reject anyway??? You have no respect for scripture so why test me like this? I love answering Christians with scripture but for an atheist this seems like a waste of my time, ???

Then what the hell are you doing on this forum? If you make claims but blatantly refuse to support them then it's considered preaching, which is against forum rules

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 35: Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:41 pm
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Jolly_Penguin wrote:

It occurs to me that many holy books claim a God exists that is all powerful and that this God has a message he/she/it wants you to know. But it occurs to me that an all powerful God would not have any need for such a limited and primitive means of communication. An all powerful God could simply make us all know what he is there and what he expects of us*. So the books themselves are at best redundant, and almost certainly misleading.

That we do not all know and agree on what God wants, that we have battles between different religions and different sects, tells me that if an all powerful God exists, he must intend all of this confusion. Perhaps he enjoys it. This conflicts with the messages I keep reading in these holy books.

So I wonder, is the mere existence of these holy books evidence against their claim of an all powerful God with a message he wants us to know?

* - Please note that us knowing what he expects of us doesn't in any way restrict our "free will" to obey or not obey what he wants, an in fact that only with knowing what he wants can we truly make any informed choice and have "free will" on the matter.


If you don't listen to his voice and obey his commandments ( knowledge ), you will remain confused just as he had his prophet write in this prophecy;

Deuteronomy 28
15: “But if you will not obey the voice of the Lord your God or be careful to do all his commandments which I command you this day, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you.
16: Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the field.
17: Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading-trough.
18: cursed shall be the fruit of your body, and the fruit of your ground, the increase of your cattle, and the young of your flock.
19: Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out.
20: “the Lord will send upon you curses, confusion, and frustration, in all that you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and perish quickly, on account of the evil of your doings, because you have forsaken me.
21: The Lord will make the pestilence cleave to you until he has consumed you off the land which you are entering to take possession of it.
22: The Lord will smite you with consumption, and with fever, inflammation, and fiery heat, and with drought, and with blasting, and with mildew; they shall pursue you until your perish.
23: And the heavens over your head shall be brass, and the earth under you shall be iron.
24: The Lord will make the rain of your land powder and dust; from heaven it shall come down upon you until you are destroyed.

If you listen to his voice, he will teach you everything you need to know so that you will never be concerned about your future again.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 36: Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:14 pm
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Infinite One wrote:

If you listen to his voice, he will teach you everything you need to know so that you will never be concerned about your future again.

A lot of people claim to hear voices in their head – some are preachers, some are proselytizers, some are criminals, some are institutionalized or incarcerated, some are frauds. They seem to have in common "Take my word for it." Which, if any, should be believed and WHY?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 37: Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:33 pm
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Zzyzx wrote:

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Infinite One wrote:

If you listen to his voice, he will teach you everything you need to know so that you will never be concerned about your future again.

A lot of people claim to hear voices in their head – some are preachers, some are proselytizers, some are criminals, some are institutionalized or incarcerated, some are frauds. They seem to have in common "Take my word for it." Which, if any, should be believed and WHY?


When you think about something, you are listening to thoughts. All thoughts originate in the mind of our Creator who spoke them all into his creation. Since we are his created beings made in his thoughts, he can easily make us believe we're individual people by giving each of us a set of thoughts to think with while we're experiencing life within a body. Every individual gets different thoughts to think with and this is what makes us individuals with different personalities.

Our Creator can get our attention in many different ways through these thoughts. Some of these thoughts translate into spoken words while other thoughts translate into objects that inventors draw on paper or artists express through music, drawings, paintings, sculpture, poetry, etc. Thoughts can cause fear, jealousy, anger, hate, sadness, etc. They can lead man to kill or rape other people. They can cause man to seek other people to be accepted, comforted and loved, etc.

Everything that man has built with his human hands started out as thoughts from our Creator but most people don't know that these thoughts originated in the mind of our Creator before he created anything. All visible objects have to be planned out in order to be built they way they are. Random information cannot build a human body, tree, rock or water. These objects have to be designed before they're built. All we have to do to understand this fact is to bring all the materials needed, including the plans, to a construction site to see if those materials will build itself into a tall skyscraper according to the plan. We all know this is impossible in our world today but that doesn't mean that our Creator can't make that happen in our thoughts. In fact, many architects can build skyscrapers in their minds before they even draw up the plans. How is that possible without a Creator giving him those thoughts?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 38: Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:00 pm
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Zzyzx wrote:

.
Infinite One wrote:

If you listen to his voice, he will teach you everything you need to know so that you will never be concerned about your future again.

A lot of people claim to hear voices in their head – some are preachers, some are proselytizers, some are criminals, some are institutionalized or incarcerated, some are frauds. They seem to have in common "Take my word for it." Which, if any, should be believed and WHY?


I think he was referring to the voice in your own head and I would add not to follow until it proves it is GOD.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 39: Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:05 pm
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Infinite One wrote:
...All thoughts originate in the mind of our Creator who spoke them all into his creation....


How then do you reconcile James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone. yet James 1:14 Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. which implies to me that if you are correct, HE gives us tempting thoughts/ desires in contradiction to HE does not tempt anyone...?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 40: Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:36 pm
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Jolly_Penguin wrote:

It occurs to me that many holy books claim a God exists that is all powerful and that this God has a message he/she/it wants you to know. But it occurs to me that an all powerful God would not have any need for such a limited and primitive means of communication. An all powerful God could simply make us all know what he is there and what he expects of us*. So the books themselves are at best redundant, and almost certainly misleading.

That we do not all know and agree on what God wants, that we have battles between different religions and different sects, tells me that if an all powerful God exists, he must intend all of this confusion. Perhaps he enjoys it. This conflicts with the messages I keep reading in these holy books.

So I wonder, is the mere existence of these holy books evidence against their claim of an all powerful God with a message he wants us to know?

* - Please note that us knowing what he expects of us doesn't in any way restrict our "free will" to obey or not obey what he wants, an in fact that only with knowing what he wants can we truly make any informed choice and have "free will" on the matter.


For some reason God seems to want His messages to humankind to be obscure. He seems to want us to believe in the truth of some very seriously unbelievable and unrealistic things based almost entirely on faith alone for some reason. It's almost as if He is attempting to separate out anyone with an ounce of skepticism in them from those who are profoundly gullible. Otherwise He would have waited until modern times for Jesus to bring us his offer of salvation, and Jesus could have been resurrected on live television. In which case all doubt could have been avoided and the message clear to the whole world. Instead however, we in modern times are provided with no verifiable miracles of God at all to certify His Will and His Existence. Instead we get events like Sandy Hook; an event in which a loving all powerful Supreme Being would have come in really handy. One might almost reasonably conclude that such events occur because God never existed to begin with.

It's said that the weak will inherent the earth. Apparently profound gullibility is also a requirement.

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