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Jolly_Penguin
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:30 pm  Existence of Holy Books as Evidence Against Their Claims Reply with quote

It occurs to me that many holy books claim a God exists that is all powerful and that this God has a message he/she/it wants you to know. But it occurs to me that an all powerful God would not have any need for such a limited and primitive means of communication. An all powerful God could simply make us all know what he is there and what he expects of us*. So the books themselves are at best redundant, and almost certainly misleading.

That we do not all know and agree on what God wants, that we have battles between different religions and different sects, tells me that if an all powerful God exists, he must intend all of this confusion. Perhaps he enjoys it. This conflicts with the messages I keep reading in these holy books.

So I wonder, is the mere existence of these holy books evidence against their claim of an all powerful God with a message he wants us to know?

* - Please note that us knowing what he expects of us doesn't in any way restrict our "free will" to obey or not obey what he wants, an in fact that only with knowing what he wants can we truly make any informed choice and have "free will" on the matter.
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 41: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:03 pm
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ttruscott wrote:

Infinite One wrote:
...All thoughts originate in the mind of our Creator who spoke them all into his creation....


How then do you reconcile James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone. yet James 1:14 Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. which implies to me that if you are correct, HE gives us tempting thoughts/ desires in contradiction to HE does not tempt anyone...?


God set up different kinds of thoughts. The thoughts man thinks with are called Satan and the Beast. The thoughts that He has His prophets and saints write and speak are not from Satan and the Beast. We refer to these thoughts as Christ or the Son of God, Spirit of God, Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Heaven, Kingdom of the Spirit, Holy Spirit, etc.

I know the difference between the thoughts of Christ and the thoughts of Satan and the Beast. Since I know the difference, you cannot make me believe that your thoughts come from Christ, even if you quote scripture. That's because you don't know whose thoughts were involved in changing the original writings of the prophets and saints who God used to testify to his knowledge.

If you put your trust in the New Testament as the true writings of God's saints who testified to his knowledge, then you won't trust the voice of God when He speaks to you.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 42: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:15 pm
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Tired of the Nonsense wrote:

It's almost as if He is attempting to separate out anyone with an ounce of skepticism in them from those who are profoundly gullible....
It's almost as if He is attempting to separate out anyone with an ounce of skepticism in them from those who are profoundly gullible....


Or maybe HE is separating out those whose rebellion is presented as scepticism from those whose hope in HIM is confused with gullibility by the sceptics?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 43: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:17 pm
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Infinite One wrote:
...
I know the difference between the thoughts of Christ and the thoughts of Satan and the Beast. ...


Who else knows this difference?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 44: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:22 pm
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Infinite One wrote:

...
God set up different kinds of thoughts. The thoughts man thinks with are called Satan and the Beast. The thoughts that He has His prophets and saints write and speak are not from Satan and the Beast. We refer to these thoughts as Christ or the Son of God, Spirit of God, Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Heaven, Kingdom of the Spirit, Holy Spirit, etc. ...


But then all evil comes from the thoughts of GOD. Sorry, my GOD is a GOD of love who has no wickedness in HIM. HE is light with no darkness. Brackish water cannot come from a well of pure sweet water. Your definition fits an Eastern expression of their false god more than it does the Christian YHWH.

Thanks for sharing...but no thanks.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 45: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:27 pm
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[Replying to post 41 by Infinite One]



Are you saying you know Christs and satans thoughts ? Then deny the NT? I am seriously confused here.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 46: Sat Nov 07, 2015 8:50 pm
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ttruscott wrote:

Infinite One wrote:

...
God set up different kinds of thoughts. The thoughts man thinks with are called Satan and the Beast. The thoughts that He has His prophets and saints write and speak are not from Satan and the Beast. We refer to these thoughts as Christ or the Son of God, Spirit of God, Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Heaven, Kingdom of the Spirit, Holy Spirit, etc. ...


But then all evil comes from the thoughts of GOD. Sorry, my GOD is a GOD of love who has no wickedness in HIM. HE is light with no darkness. Brackish water cannot come from a well of pure sweet water. Your definition fits an Eastern expression of their false god more than it does the Christian YHWH.

Thanks for sharing...but no thanks.

The problem is that once you accept the idea that man can interpret the thoughts of God and write them down in a book, Infinite One's words have exactly the same validity as any book in the Bible.

This is why the wise man builds his house upon the rock of science and empiricism, not the sands of personal 'divine' inspiration.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 47: Sun Nov 08, 2015 6:08 am
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So back on topic...

... Is the existence of the bible evidence against an all powerful god having a message he wants all to know?

If you say that reading the bible with an open heart will lead you on the right path, I have to ask you, do you say that all of those millions of people who find a different sect and interpret the book differently than you do, liars? That would be a whole lot of dishonesty.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 48: Sun Nov 08, 2015 10:53 am
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Justin108 wrote:

ttruscott wrote:

I can do that but first I want you to tell me why I must go to the work to provide these verses which as an atheist you will just ignore or reject anyway??? You have no respect for scripture so why test me like this? I love answering Christians with scripture but for an atheist this seems like a waste of my time, ???

Then what the hell are you doing on this forum? If you make claims but blatantly refuse to support them then it's considered preaching, which is against forum rules


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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 49: Sun Nov 08, 2015 10:55 am
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ttruscott wrote:

Justin108 wrote:

ttruscott wrote:

By their free will some have destroyed their capacity to understand spiritual things. GOD did not make this happen by anything within their creation...it all happened because they chose by their free will that which they knew might cause it to happen (rejecting HIM and so becoming evil in HIS sight), but thought that it was better to put their faith for eternal happiness into rejecting HIM as a false god and HIS promise of salvation as lies.

Some sinners HE can work with and bring them back to faith in HIS reality but others chose by their free will to be outside of HIS reality forever and cannot be brought back in by anything.


Please back this with scripture


I can do that but first I want you to tell me why I must go to the work to provide these verses which as an atheist you will just ignore or reject anyway??? You have no respect for scripture so why test me like this? I love answering Christians with scripture but for an atheist this seems like a waste of my time, ???


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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 50: Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:37 pm
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Danmark wrote:

ttruscott wrote:

Infinite One wrote:

...
God set up different kinds of thoughts. The thoughts man thinks with are called Satan and the Beast. The thoughts that He has His prophets and saints write and speak are not from Satan and the Beast. We refer to these thoughts as Christ or the Son of God, Spirit of God, Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Heaven, Kingdom of the Spirit, Holy Spirit, etc. ...


But then all evil comes from the thoughts of GOD. Sorry, my GOD is a GOD of love who has no wickedness in HIM. HE is light with no darkness. Brackish water cannot come from a well of pure sweet water. Your definition fits an Eastern expression of their false god more than it does the Christian YHWH.

Thanks for sharing...but no thanks.

The problem is that once you accept the idea that man can interpret the thoughts of God and write them down in a book, Infinite One's words have exactly the same validity as any book in the Bible.

This is why the wise man builds his house upon the rock of science and empiricism, not the sands of personal 'divine' inspiration.


Very acceptable indeed, IF the rock of science and empiricism could in fact teach us spiritual things. It cannot even deal with 95% of the physical world and since it has nothing to say about the spiritual world, we who are in the Spirit must take our clues from the Spirit: 1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; etc, etc.

imCo
One must seek GOD and then listen to learn understanding, not seek to understand the world so as to find GOD.

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