Is altruism impossible?

[jgh7]

Okay, so here's a possible definition of altruism that I googled:

the belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others.

----

I've heard suggested that the desire to do good is based solely on selfishness. We do good because the original motivation is to make ourselves feel good.

This would make true altruism impossible in humans. What do you think? Is true altruism impossible for humans. Do our desires to do good ultimately boil back to selfish desires of wanting to feel good?

[Ancient of Years]

Okay, so here's a possible definition of altruism that I googled:

the belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others.

----

I've heard suggested that the desire to do good is based solely on selfishness. We do good because the original motivation is to make ourselves feel good.

This would make true altruism impossible in humans. What do you think? Is true altruism impossible for humans. Do our desires to do good ultimately boil back to selfish desires of wanting to feel good?

Why should true altruism be desirable? Totally selfless concern for others will always lead to the selfish receiving but never giving. This would result in the selfish prospering and the altruistic going extinct. Viewed that way what is wrong with rewarding limited altruism, such as providing for the needy?

[jgh7]

[Replying to post 2 by Ancient of Years]

Is there such a thing as limited altruism even?
When you give some to the needy, are you doing it altruistically or are you doing it for some other reason: wanting to feel good about yourself, wanting to do it as a "good deed" chore or duty, etc.

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to post 1 by jgh7]

I think doing a "selfless" act without actively weighting up feel good factor vs cost of the act, fulfill the disinterested about self requirement and qualify as true altruism.

[Ancient of Years]

[Replying to post 2 by Ancient of Years]

Is there such a thing as limited altruism even?
When you give some to the needy, are you doing it altruistically or are you doing it for some other reason: wanting to feel good about yourself, wanting to do it as a "good deed" chore or duty, etc.

Limited altruism is giving to those who need it, not surrendering rights to personal property as in a Marxist society. Judaism and Catholicism teach that charity is a duty. (Read the third parable in Matthew 25.) I will not try to speak for other branches of religion. But whether it is religious duty or personal pleasure or social pressure or bragging rights, it is external factors that drive charity. Altruism is not a natural state for humans beyond the natural urge to protect shared genes (family) or shared gene propagators (spouses).

[Artie]

Altruism is not a natural state for humans beyond the natural urge to protect shared genes (family) or shared gene propagators (spouses).

"Altruism is when we act to promote someone else’s welfare, even at a risk or cost to ourselves. Though some believe that humans are fundamentally self-interested, recent research suggests otherwise: Studies have found that people’s first impulse is to cooperate rather than compete; that toddlers spontaneously help people in need out of a genuine concern for their welfare; and that even non-human primates display altruism."
http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/topic/a ... definition

[Ancient of Years]

Altruism is not a natural state for humans beyond the natural urge to protect shared genes (family) or shared gene propagators (spouses).

"Altruism is when we act to promote someone else’s welfare, even at a risk or cost to ourselves. Though some believe that humans are fundamentally self-interested, recent research suggests otherwise: Studies have found that people’s first impulse is to cooperate rather than compete; that toddlers spontaneously help people in need out of a genuine concern for their welfare; and that even non-human primates display altruism."
http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/topic/a ... definition

Cooperation is not altruism. It is reciprocity, which can be found in a number of mammalian species with social structures, most notably among the primates. If one individual cooperates with another to the benefit of that other and later the other fails to return the favor, the first individual will generally refuse to cooperate with the second ever again. The social connection was not established and the second individual now falls into the category of ‘outsider’, possibly even to the point of being fair game for predation.a

If the second individual needs assistance and the first individual provides it, and the second individual is unable to return a favor of comparable magnitude, the second individual now ‘owes’ and a rank relationship has been established. If the second individual fails to recognize this relationship, they are now an ‘outsider’.

If the first individual provides needed assistance of an ongoing nature, e.g., protection, the rank relationship is unavoidable. The second individual must provide services to the first individual or lose protection or other needed services.

Here are a couple of introductory links.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciproci ... sychology)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciproci ... hropology)

Pure altruism, the offering of services or possessions without conditions or rewards, is not natural.

[Artie]

Cooperation is not altruism. It is reciprocity

Reciprocal altruism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocal_altruism

[Ancient of Years]

Cooperation is not altruism. It is reciprocity

Reciprocal altruism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocal_altruism

This does not fit the definition of altruism given by the OP.

"the belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others"

Reciprocal altruisn is defined (in your link) as:

"a behaviour whereby an organism acts in a manner that temporarily reduces its fitness while increasing another organism's fitness, with the expectation that the other organism will act in a similar manner at a later time."

That is not disinterested or selfless.

[Artie]

Cooperation is not altruism. It is reciprocity

Reciprocal altruism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocal_altruism

This does not fit the definition of altruism given by the OP.

"the belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others"

Reciprocal altruisn is defined (in your link) as:

"a behaviour whereby an organism acts in a manner that temporarily reduces its fitness while increasing another organism's fitness, with the expectation that the other organism will act in a similar manner at a later time."

That is not disinterested or selfless.

I'm not sure what your point is. Do you think a vampire bat shares food with starving roost mates because he consciously expects them to return the favor in the future? If he doesn't consciously know that this behavior increases his own chances of survival isn't he "selfless"?