If all you knew about Jesus

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Elijah John
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If all you knew about Jesus

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

It is said that the apostle Paul never met Jesus in the flesh, only in a vision.

Yet he preached "Christ crucified".

Question for debate, if all you knew about Jesus was that he "died for your sins" would that be enough for salvation?

If you knew nothing of Jesus teachings, nothing of his vision of right and wrong, would it be enough just to believe that he died for you?

What does conventional, orthodox Christianity teach?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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anontheist
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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #2

Post by anontheist »

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

I think the question would still remain, how do you know it's true?
We don't know who Paul is, we don't know if he's reliable and we don't know if what he said is true?
I only want to believe what is true.

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Tired of the Nonsense
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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #3

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

Elijah John wrote: It is said that the apostle Paul never met Jesus in the flesh, only in a vision.

Yet he preached "Christ crucified".

Question for debate, if all you knew about Jesus was that he "died for your sins" would that be enough for salvation?

If you knew nothing of Jesus teachings, nothing of his vision of right and wrong, would it be enough just to believe that he died for you?

What does conventional, orthodox Christianity teach?
What do we know about Paul? Well he had trouble being able to differentiate between delusions and reality, and that he believed that he talked to a dead man. And yet somehow Paul's words have come to be taken as the very Words of God Himself by Christians, and not to be disputed.

2Cor.12
[1] It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
[2] I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
[3] And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
Image "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -- Albert Einstein -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind.

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ttruscott
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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #4

Post by ttruscott »

Elijah John wrote: It is said that the apostle Paul never met Jesus in the flesh, only in a vision.

Yet he preached "Christ crucified".

Question for debate, if all you knew about Jesus was that he "died for your sins" would that be enough for salvation?

If you knew nothing of Jesus teachings, nothing of his vision of right and wrong, would it be enough just to believe that he died for you?

What does conventional, orthodox Christianity teach?
inoo
"Knew about"? No...but "put your faith in His death for you," yes.

Paul may have spent the most time on it but it rests on John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

No one has (can?) measured up to His moral dictates so they have the same place in the sanctification of the sinful elect as the law - to bring us face to face with our failures so we seek His Spirit and strength. They also show that the war GOD, YHWH, is also the merciful and loving GOD mentioned in the OT but not emphasized.

Remember John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. where the word already instills some interesting alternatives especially in light of the explanation of the parable about the good seed and the tares; Matt 13:36-43 most notably in the definitions of the symbolism used: 37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. in that they suggests where we come from, and how and what happened before we got here so that some are condemned for a lack of faith already when they get here.

So faith only is our salvation and the good works is the way we work out that salvation to become perfectly holy, that is, sanctified into HIS righteousness. Salvation is separate from sanctification, two things by different people. One is the work GOD does for us with His blood shed for us. The other is our work of training our new re-born free will to only choose righteousness and good works...paralleled by the symbolism of the slain animals (for the shed blood) and the skin coats as works of sanctification (they had to put them on) given to Adam and Eve.

But salvation, that which breaks our addiction to sin and the need to pay for our sin is by faith only.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #5

Post by ttruscott »

anontheist wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

I think the question would still remain, how do you know it's true?
We don't know who Paul is, we don't know if he's reliable and we don't know if what he said is true?
You will only know it is true when GOD makes it undeniably plain to you....until then, stay skeptical.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #6

Post by Volbrigade »

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

"Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time." -- 1 Corinthians 15:1-8

This is the clearest, most concise summation of the Gospel message in The Bible.

The shortest answer to both of your question is "no".

If all we knew was that Jesus died for our sins -- it wouldn't be enough.

Without the Resurrection, the Crucifixion is just the execution of a radical Jewish rabbi.

His resurrection validates that He was who He claimed to be: the Creator of the universe, manifested "in the flesh" as a man; descending from His eternal mode of existence in order to occupy a specific place in time and space -- our limited, bounded dimensionality -- in order to accomplish a specific task, and achieve a glorious victory: to save me from the consequences of my sins.

And you, too, if you like.

And anyone else, and everyone, who is reading this.

I anticipate a common objection to the above, which I will address here, for convenience's sake:

What about those that haven't heard this "good news", this Gospel message?

I will state frankly: I don't know.

But I will indulge the mind that God has given me -- that uniquely human trait that is a part of being made "in His image" -- to offer the following speculation:

I believe a case can be made, from the "whole counsel of God", that every person is written into "the Book of Life" from "before the foundation of the world".

And that it is our sin that separates us from a Holy God. And that causes our names to be "blotted out" from that "Book" (I won't bother citing Scriptural references here; I will upon request. I am writing rather informally at this point).

What this means, in terms of those who have never heard of Jesus Christ, and of His saving Gospel, I am uncertain.

What is certain is that many people were saved before the Incarnation, which was prophesied from the earliest times, and the first pages of Genesis.

Adam, almost certainly; Abel (perhaps Cain, as well -- as long as we're speculating); Enoch; Noah: Abram, who was born a pagan gentile, and became the father of faith, as well as of "great nations"; and who was renamed "Abraham" by the addition of the Hebrew letter "heh", a breath, as of the Holy Spirit (and Sarai, his wife, as well -- "Sarah").

And on and on. Isaac, Jacob, Joseph; Moses; a more complete litany is available in Hebrews 11. Including the interesting case of Rahab, a pagan gentile harlot, who figures prominently in the family tree of our Lord and Savior.

Here is my conclusion. During Pilate's interview with Jesus, he asked the age old question asked by all atheists, agnostics, and skeptics -- which is every person who ever lived, until they come to faith --

"What is truth?"

He asked that pivotal question in regard to this dominical utterance:

"For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.� "

I believe, based on that, that there are people all over the world, in every time, who are "of the truth"; who love Jesus, even though they do not know by what name to call Him, or the story of His earthly visitation expressed throughout both Testaments.

Whether that is connected to "the souls that are in prison", preached to by Him during the time His body lay in the tomb (1 Peter 3:19), I am not prepared to assert, dogmatically. But it is certainly a hopeful possibility.

Here is what is certain:

If you are given the grace to have the opportunity to hear the Gospel, and heed the call to redemption and justification through faith in the risen Christ -- and you reject that message, that call, and that redemption --

then you are not "of the truth". And there is no other name by which you can be saved. And your condemnation is final, and eternal.

Have a good weekend.

8-)

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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #7

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

ttruscott wrote:
anontheist wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

I think the question would still remain, how do you know it's true?
We don't know who Paul is, we don't know if he's reliable and we don't know if what he said is true?
You will only know it is true when GOD makes it undeniably plain to you....until then, stay skeptical.
If God wants to make anything undeniably plain to me He should do it now while I am still alive and potentially pliable. I have no reason to suppose that I won't be a good many times more difficult to convince of anything once I am dead.
Image "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -- Albert Einstein -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind.

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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #8

Post by Divine Insight »

Elijah John wrote: It is said that the apostle Paul never met Jesus in the flesh, only in a vision.

Yet he preached "Christ crucified".

Question for debate, if all you knew about Jesus was that he "died for your sins" would that be enough for salvation?
According to some Christian denominators, yes, that's all a person need to believe (although even though this is what they claim, they typically then go on to always demand more anyway)

On the topic of Paul, it was never implied that all Paul knew of of Jesus was that he was crucified. Paul may very well have been well-versed on all the Christin rumors of the time. Paul wasn't introduced to "Christianity" out of the blue when he supposedly had his vision of "Christ". To the contrary, Christianity had existed long before this and Paul was heavily involved in fighting against Christianity, so he was no doubt aware of what they believed. Many secularists have claimed that the very reason that Paul had this particular hallucination is because he was feeling guilty about having persecuted so many innocent Christians. And so his "vision" was most likely the result of a nervous breakdown of some sort.
Elijah John wrote: If you knew nothing of Jesus teachings, nothing of his vision of right and wrong, would it be enough just to believe that he died for you?
This is what evangelists claim to teach in the early going. All you need to do is accept Christ as your savior and you are "Saved". And knowing that he died to pay for your sins is sufficient at that point.

However, they obviously don't stop there. Once a person is "saved" that's only the very beginning of the brainwashing scheme. Now that they have the person believing that they have been saved by a demigod who died from them they are going to now demand that they also worship all the dogma of the cult.

And if you reject any of the dogma of the cult, then they will renounced that you had ever been "saved". :roll:

It's a very typical brainwashing tactic for religious cults to use. As long as you support the dogma of their cult they will support that their God loves you. But if you question the dogma of their cult, then you will be proclaimed to be a heathen who was never saved at all, and their God will hate you because you have obviously chosen to sell your soul to Satan and that was your free will choice.

These religions cults will turn on you instantly if you disagree with their dogma. Believing that Jesus died for your sins becomes totally irrelevant at that point. ;)
Elijah John wrote: What does conventional, orthodox Christianity teach?
It's been my experience that conventional orthodox Christian denominations all teach different things. It's not like there is such a thing as "one" conventional orthodox Christianity. If there was such a thing it would most likely be Catholicism. But even the Catholic Popes have not been consistent over the years in their representations of what Catholicism stands for. So I think it's rather meaningless to even speak of such a thing as "conventional orthodox Christianity", at least in any broad terms of what they actually believe.

It probably does make sense to say that "conventional orthodox Christianities" all agree that Jesus is the Virgin Born Son of God who rose from the dead. This is something they all do seem to have in common to a point where those factions that disagree on this issue could be said to be "unorthodox".

But how they view that paradigm actually working, seem to be quite different even among the orthodox factions.
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Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #9

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

[Replying to post 6 by Volbrigade]
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time." -- 1 Corinthians 15:1-8
And yet Paul was present for none of this himself, was he! So how did he come by this story? Well, Paul's claim to fame in the Christian community was his assertion that he had been in contact with a dead man. Is that a reasonable claim, or could a reasonable person be forgiven for having reasonable doubts?
Volbrigade wrote: Without the Resurrection, the Crucifixion is just the execution of a radical Jewish rabbi.


And this I must say is hard to dispute. It does rather neatly explain why everyone who lived 2,000 years ago is still quite reliably and undeniably DEAD though. This despite Christians proclaiming that Jesus is about to return at any moment now. A claim that has an ongoing record of being right which is exactly ZERO for 2,000 years. Many would consider that conclusive. Christians of course declare that it is just about to happen NOW. Which is of course EXACTLY what they have been saying for the last 2,000 years.
Image "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -- Albert Einstein -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind.

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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #10

Post by anontheist »

[Replying to post 5 by ttruscott]

But you're same with any Muslim or Mormon would say as well.
I only want to believe what is true.

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