If all you knew about Jesus

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Elijah John
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If all you knew about Jesus

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

It is said that the apostle Paul never met Jesus in the flesh, only in a vision.

Yet he preached "Christ crucified".

Question for debate, if all you knew about Jesus was that he "died for your sins" would that be enough for salvation?

If you knew nothing of Jesus teachings, nothing of his vision of right and wrong, would it be enough just to believe that he died for you?

What does conventional, orthodox Christianity teach?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Elijah John
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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #61

Post by Elijah John »

ttruscott wrote:
Elijah John wrote:
If his "atoning death and resurrection" were so important, why DIDNT Jesus prepare his disciples for this in the Sermon, and explain it's theolgical significance? (rhetorical question)
imCo
Christians are saved by grace through or by faith. That means that even though all sinners are equal in their evil, some (for some reason) are scooped out of the population to be saved from their sin and the consequences of their sin. This is GOD's job and there is nothing anyone can do about it...that is, we are not saved by works. If you are chosen, it will happen to you.

IF our faith is saving faith it will be what is pleasing to GOD no matter the content or our ability to express that content. How and why HE saves us by the atoning death is immaterial, only that HE brings us to faith in the event as fact.

Since this seems arbitrary at best and favouritism at worst I am compelled to find a time and place and method by which such a decision to save some and not others is NOT arbitrary nor plays favourites but depends on the desires of the person themselves in relation to HIS self revelation. This I explain as our pre-conception existence.
I agree, the MEANS of atonemtent is not as important as the fact of atonement, and I agree that it is through grace by faith, but I differ with Pauline Christians in that I do not see the necessity of blood, even in the "grace by faith" formula.

Regarding the elect, I believe that God's grace is offered to ALL, not just the elect. Folks have free to accept YHVH's offer or not. God knows in advance, but does not compel.

So it seems your PCE theory does NOT depend on accepting Paul's theology of blood atonement, but only choosing YHVH, as Jesus taught? Fair assessment?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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ttruscott
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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #62

Post by ttruscott »

Elijah John wrote:
Regarding the elect, I believe that God's grace is offered to ALL, not just the elect. Folks have free to accept YHVH's offer or not. God knows in advance, but does not compel.
My few reservations about this presentation seem compelling...

1. IF GOD knows in advance who would not avail themselves of HIS grace and salvation before they were created BUT created them anyway, wherein is HE loving? If true, this concept destroys the idea that HIS nature as loving and merciful when if all HE has to do to keep hell (or whatever - even annihilation) empty is to not create them.

2. If God's grace is offered to all who accept then the fact that Jesus spoke of some ending in fire means that HE quit waiting for some to accept. I contend that the GOD who is love and whose patience is therefore perfect would never stop waiting for anyone who could be saved to repent and accept HIS salvation. Why the rush? Why save me before I die and let my brother die before he repents? Or why not use reincarnation to patiently wait for everyone to see the light and get with HIS program?

Since HE is love and love is patient I contend that there can be nobody in all creation who is not saved and missing the heavenly experience because HE will wait a thousand eternities for the stubborn ones to repent IF THEY CAN... or in other words, HIS loving patience is proof that anyone not saved is proof they cannot be saved, not that they just left the decision a minute too long.

IF HE is waiting patiently for all to repent proving salvation is universal, then there is no reason for the Biblical admonitions of destruction and a fiery end for HIS enemies which sounds like false bravado to manipulate the stubborn into acquiescence, not a GODly approach at all.
So it seems your PCE theory does NOT depend on accepting Paul's theology of blood atonement, but only choosing YHVH, as Jesus taught? Fair assessment?
Sort of. The elct became elect when they accepted HIS claims to be our creator GOD and HIS promise of salvation was to be found in HIS Son if we should ever sin. That both the gospel salvation and election were given to us (real people) before the creation of the world I find in: Revelation 13:8 ...all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. which cannot refer to His actual death since we know when He died but to His promise of death for us before the creation of the world. This is not Paul by the way and the allusion to the Paschal Lamb is unmistakably OT.

And Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. This word 'chose' is not the same word as election but it has the same meaning and again we have this choosing as before the creation of the world.

The non-elect of course would be those who rejected HIS claims to deity and salvation and sealed their fate.

Now to the 'sort of'...

Our acceptance or rejection of YHW as our GOD was a faith based decision, that is, it was not based upon proof but hope it was all true. Who, if they had proof of HIS deity and HIS promise of heaven and warnings of hell were true would ever choose against HIM? Such proof would destroy their free will and since the end of accepting HIM is our marriage to HIM called the heavenly state, it must be acceptable to us by our own free will, uncoerced by anything whatsoever.

Thus the elect are those who chose to put their faith/trust/hope in HIM as telling us the truth and those who became the non-elect, the reprobate/counterfeit/fake children of GOD, are those that put their faith/trust/hope in the their own estimation HE was a false god telling us lies even while knowing the consequences if they were wrong: Deuteronomy 32:5 They have acted corruptly toward Him. They are not His children, because of their defect [un-faith] but are a perverse and crooked generation. or: their defect is that they are not HIS children, explains this very well to me.

So our election or reprobation stood on our free will decision to accept or reject HIM by faith and faith is the be all and end all of HIS creation especially salvation from our sin.

So yes, we had to choose YHWH, take HIM at HIS word which included the promise of salvation from the angel of death by the death of the Lamb so once we were sinners living on earth, HE is bringing us back to our first faith and firming up our pre-sin faith in Christ's death, and since His death, filling in the details to solidify our faith.

So how well we understand Paul or rather, do not understand him correctly, GOD's grace to HIS elect, HIS promise to save us from our foolish sinful fulness by Christ's death, cannot fail. But the promise of His death preceded Paul so how much of Paul's teachings about His death are necessary is moot - all things necessary will be fulfilled by HIS promise of election in our faith.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #63

Post by Peds nurse »

Hamsaka wrote:
Volbrigade wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]


Without the Resurrection, the Crucifixion is just the execution of a radical Jewish rabbi.
Hamsaka wrote:Why is this not a reasonable conclusion, based upon the sheer unlikelihood of a person being killed, then rising from the dead?
Hello Ms. Hamsaka!!! Hope everything in your world is just fine and dandy!

I will admit to only reading your post, and not the former one by Volbrigade. The difference between other people being crucified and Jesus, is that no one else claimed to be the Son of God. No one else had the title of Messiah, or at least that I know of. In the history of the world, has anyone else claimed to have risen from the dead to pay for our sins? Jesus, was not an ordinary man, nor did He do ordinary things while on this Earth.

Just my two cents....
Last edited by Peds nurse on Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #64

Post by Peds nurse »

Elijah John wrote:
Peds nurse wrote:
It would be enough because Paul says that only through Christ can we see God.

Have a wonderful, fun filled, quiet evening!
EJ wrote:What matters more, what Jesus said or what Paul said?
It isn't about what Paul or Jesus said, because both lead to the truth. It is more important of what Jesus did vs. Paul. If Jesus was not crucified for our sins, then what Paul preaches would be a moot point.
EJ wrote:What reveals the Father, Jesus teaching on the Sermon on the Mount, of Paul's theology of the redemptive Resurrection...or both?
They both lead to salvation through Jesus. Different journeys, but the same destination point.
EJ wrote:Is one dependent on the other? If so, which has presedence?
Like I stated earlier, if Jesus hadn't of died for our sins, then Paul wouldn't need to have written to several churches. It is the redemption of our sins, that lead us to God.

Have the most wonderful day!

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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #65

Post by Peds nurse »

ttruscott wrote:
Elijah John wrote:
Regarding the elect, I believe that God's grace is offered to ALL, not just the elect. Folks have free to accept YHVH's offer or not. God knows in advance, but does not compel.
Truscott wrote:My few reservations about this presentation seem compelling...

1. IF GOD knows in advance who would not avail themselves of HIS grace and salvation before they were created BUT created them anyway, wherein is HE loving? If true, this concept destroys the idea that HIS nature as loving and merciful when if all HE has to do to keep hell (or whatever - even annihilation) empty is to not create them.
Hello Truscott!

Does not God use the ungodly to accomplish His will and purpose? Psalm 139:16 says, that in His book are written the days that were ordained for us, when as yet there was not one of them.
Truscott wrote:2. If God's grace is offered to all who accept then the fact that Jesus spoke of some ending in fire means that HE quit waiting for some to accept. I contend that the GOD who is love and whose patience is therefore perfect would never stop waiting for anyone who could be saved to repent and accept HIS salvation. Why the rush? Why save me before I die and let my brother die before he repents? Or why not use reincarnation to patiently wait for everyone to see the light and get with HIS program?
How could God quit waiting for those who choose not to accept His word? Isn't grace given to those who believe they need it? I don't think grace can be given to someone if they shun it away. It says in the New Testament, that we will be without excuse...
Truscott wrote:Since HE is love and love is patient I contend that there can be nobody in all creation who is not saved and missing the heavenly experience because HE will wait a thousand eternities for the stubborn ones to repent IF THEY CAN... or in other words, HIS loving patience is proof that anyone not saved is proof they cannot be saved, not that they just left the decision a minute too long.
People don't live a thousand eternities, so how is that possible for them to make a decision. Also, when they are passed on from this life, does God continue to wait for them? Love is patient, but it also holds us accountable for the truth.

Truscott wrote:IF HE is waiting patiently for all to repent proving salvation is universal, then there is no reason for the Biblical admonitions of destruction and a fiery end for HIS enemies which sounds like false bravado to manipulate the stubborn into acquiescence, not a GODly approach at all.
If there is no Hell for those who don't believe, then The Bible isn't true, for there truly is no separation from God at all. And Jesus would never had had to die on the cross for our sins....because it wouldn't matter.
So it seems your PCE theory does NOT depend on accepting Paul's theology of blood atonement, but only choosing YHVH, as Jesus taught? Fair assessment?
Truscott wrote:Sort of. The elct became elect when they accepted HIS claims to be our creator GOD and HIS promise of salvation was to be found in HIS Son if we should ever sin. That both the gospel salvation and election were given to us (real people) before the creation of the world I find in: Revelation 13:8 ...all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. which cannot refer to His actual death since we know when He died but to His promise of death for us before the creation of the world. This is not Paul by the way and the allusion to the Paschal Lamb is unmistakably OT.
I always thought that the end of time was when this would happen, and those who had their name written in the book of life would be saved. This means that those who's names are in the book are preordained. God knew who would serve the enemy, and who would serve Him.

Elijah John
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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #66

Post by Elijah John »

Peds nurse wrote:
Elijah John wrote:
Peds nurse wrote:
It would be enough because Paul says that only through Christ can we see God.

Have a wonderful, fun filled, quiet evening!
EJ wrote:What matters more, what Jesus said or what Paul said?
It isn't about what Paul or Jesus said, because both lead to the truth. It is more important of what Jesus did vs. Paul. If Jesus was not crucified for our sins, then what Paul preaches would be a moot point.
EJ wrote:What reveals the Father, Jesus teaching on the Sermon on the Mount, of Paul's theology of the redemptive Resurrection...or both?
They both lead to salvation through Jesus. Different journeys, but the same destination point.
EJ wrote:Is one dependent on the other? If so, which has presedence?
Like I stated earlier, if Jesus hadn't of died for our sins, then Paul wouldn't need to have written to several churches. It is the redemption of our sins, that lead us to God.

Have the most wonderful day!
You seem to be saying that both are necessary. Of course, if he hadn't lived, he couldn't have died, but what if he had remained anyonomous and didn't teach? What if the "Son of God" had been silent or ONLY taught that he would die for people's sins?

Nothing about teaching the Lord's prayer, nothing about embracng the Spirit of the Law, over the letter of the Law, nothing about the Golden Rule...What if he only taught that his life would be a "ransom for many"?

Would that be enough for salvation? If not, isn't that basically the embodiment of Paul's teaching?

Consider this statement by Paul..."If one could be justified by works of the law, then Christ died in vain"

Consider also the converse..."IF all that is necessary for salvation is to accept the preaching of "Christ crucified and resurrected" then Christ TAUGHT in vain..

Related questions...was the main purpose of Jesus life to "die to pay for our sins"?

Or was it to preach love of God and neighbor?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Peds nurse
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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #67

Post by Peds nurse »

[Replying to post 66 by Elijah John]

The main purpose, of Christ (what I believe), is to reunite God's people unto Himself. Christ did this through showing us the character of God himself, and giving testimony to how we as God's people are to carry ourselves, through loving God and loving others. Christ's ultimate testimony to love however, came as death on the cross. It is a selfless love, full of grace and mercy, granting life to all who wish to have it!

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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #68

Post by Willum »

[Replying to Peds nurse]

Absolutely!
Rather than to continue to travel the world, presenting it with blessings, Jesus died under questionable circumstances, in a very small region of the world, for no reason I can understand, and no one since then has been able to adequately explain.

The brilliant plan of traveling everywhere over the course of the next several years, saying I will ascend in front of everyone (via holograph?), whatever, on such and such a date would be so much less convincing.

As much as your belief is interesting...
The truth can be proved.
A lie can be disproved.
But a belief can be neither proved nor disproved-and is very difficult to discuss. I mean if I make a comment about your personal belief, it may be offensive and against forum rules, for example.
This is a test: Had this been an actual revolution, the virus would have been much stronger.

To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight

Who would be proud these tactics?

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