What does the Bible mean by "fornication"?

Debating issues regarding sexuality

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YahDough
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Re: What does the Bible mean by "fornication"?

Post #51

Post by YahDough »

Yahu wrote:
YahDough wrote: You mean men like you who think and teach it's OK to practice "sex sins" like fornication?
I do NOT teach it is ok to practice fornication.


Without the Holy Ghost Spirit of Christ living inside our flesh, one will not know what to teach and practice regading sexual sins like fornication. God sets His standards in our hearts and minds through that Holy Spirit.
I disagree with the modern day church that defines fornication as any pre-maritalsexual contact. That is NOT the Hebrew definition of the word or how the Old Testament portrays fornication.
Without the Holy Ghost Spirit of Christ living inside our flesh, one will not know for sure what God requires
I have shown how Phariseeism is about expanding on the actual law and Yeshua's resistance to those practices of the Pharisees.
Jesus expanded on sexual sin even further by including what we think as potential sin.
I took Hebrew at Lee University under a professor that had his doctorate in Semitic languages. The book of Ruth was covered and Ruth was told by Naomi to wait until Boaz had feast and drank then go have intercourse with him after he went to sleep.
That's a lie. That professor embellished the truth with a lie. . Ruth humbled herself and layed at Boas's feet. There was no sex that night.
I will accept the correctness of my Hebrew professor at a major bible college over a random poster on a religious forum.
It appears you will also accept your professor's teachings over the teachings of Christ Jesus. People who don't have the Holy Ghost Spirit of Truth living inside them are likely never to get it right. Did you get the hint?

It is ironic that a Pharisee would feel called by Yah to try to expose other Pharisees. That would be a house divided against itself. I hope this post enlightens and not offends you.

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Re: What does the Bible mean by "fornication"?

Post #52

Post by Yahu »

YahDough wrote: Jesus expanded on sexual sin even further by including what we think as potential sin.
That is partially correct. It is NOT 'potential sin'. The law only covered the physical acts, the sins of the body and the spiritual form of it. Yeshua expanded it to include sins of the soul. To fantasize about a sexual sin without doing it physically is a willingness to do the physical sin. It also judges the attitudes of the heart.

1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

The physical sin is 'lust of the flesh'. The 'lust of the eyes' is the sin of the soul when you look at an attractive woman and fantasize about sex with her.

The sin of the 'pride of life' is the spiritual form of the sin.

For adultery, the physical sin is easy to identify. It is a man that has sex with a woman that is married or betrothed to another. It has nothing to do with whether he is already married or not.

The 'lust of the eyes' is also easy to identify. It is performing those acts in your mind without doing so physically. It is a willingness to perform the sin if the situation was possible. It is NOT 'potential sin' but actual sin done only in your mind.

Yah equates 'spiritual adultery' as violation of the covenant with Him by following the ways of the pagan gods. Anyone that mixes in the pagan doctrines with their doctrines of Christianity is guilty of 'spiritual adultery'. All over the OT spiritual adultery is linked with the pagan worship in violation of the covenant with Yah.

It is that spiritual adultery that I am battling against with the Phariseeism within the modern day church that requires sexual perfection as a requirement to even enter the kingdom by twisting scriptures without understanding and following doctrines rooted in that ancient paganism then attacking anyone that doesn't conform to their expansion of the law.

I see spiritual fornication as any act to usurp false authority over another to satisfy their lust for power over others. It is following the ways of Ashtoreth who was the goddess of Jezebel. Ashtoreth is the principality over all those attributes and all Jezebel spirits. Manipulation and control over men by sexual means is a major attribute of a Jezebel. Both allowing those to bow to her have all the sexual activity they want and those that are her enemy, she tries to deny legal sexual activity making it harder to achieve perfection. The primary attribute of a Jezebel is arrogance and superiority while Yah requires the humble and submissive.

Any woman that is trying to control the sexual activity of men is operating under the influence of a Jezebel spirit. A wife that uses sex to reward a husband and denies sex to punish a husband is a Jezebel. A woman can still be a major Jezebel even if she has only had sex with her own husband. Using sex as a bribe, or as a form of reward/punishment is a means to usurp invalid control over a husband. It is whoredoms. The 'contrary whore' of Eze 16 uses sex as a reward for example to pay men that bow to her instead of being paid as other whores.

The Greek worship of the goddess Ashtoreth was broken down into worship of her in her early life as the 'arrogant virgin' a goddess of manipulation, control, witchcraft and attacking men for their sexual activity. That aspect of her persona was the worship of Artemis. Later in life when she became a goddess of physical whoredoms, they worshiped her under the name Aphrodite. The Roman's knew she was the same goddess but in different phases of her life and worshiped her under the name Diana Luciferah.

Attacking men for lawful sexual activity is following the doctrines of Artemis, the young Asthoreth. It is an example of being in spiritual adultery against Yah. Of course the attempt to usurp invalid authority over men is also being guilty of witchcraft which is also a major attribute of Ashtoreth.

Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. Rebellion is rejecting a valid authority over you like a wife rejecting the authority of her husband. Witchcraft is taking invalid authority like a wife not only rejecting a husband's authority but in trying to impose her will over her husband and sex is the biggest weapon a woman wields against a man to effect that control.

Fornication includes all specific sexual laws equated as sin. A man guilty of fornication is a man that rapes, takes girls virginity for fun, has sex with anyone willing, ie strangers, homosexuality or even incest or bestiality. It is sex to satisfy lust. It has nothing to do with sex within a relationship with a non-virgin or sex with their betrothed. We have to be responsible within our sexual activities.

You are so focused on the 'lusts of the flesh' and 'lusts of the eyes' but totally ignore the 'pride of life' aspects of those sins. Being prideful of being in sexual perfection is just as much a sin as being guilty of fornication. Yah rejects the prideful.

Another pagan doctrine influencing women is following the ways of Asherah, the mother goddess of the Canaanites. Women that treat others as children and think they can punish the bad boys and girls without the authority to do so. She is the other major goddess of witchcraft among the Canaanites. So any woman that punishes any man is guilty of that spiritual adultery unless she is somehow an authority over him. A wife is never an authority over a husband. A woman is never a spiritual authority over any man but her own minor sons. A woman that uses her 'mothering instincts' on other men is guilty of 'spiritual adultery' against Yah.

Phariseeism is guilty of this sin. It rewards those that bow down to church sanctioned marriage and punishes those that don't without the authority to do so.

I got involved with a virgin when I was 19, before I entered the military. She wanted to stay a virgin until she married. I didn't have any problem with that and recommended it. I saw her again years later at my sister's wedding after I got out of the military. She was engaged. I asked her if she made it, was she still a virgin. She admitted she had given up her virginity on the night she had gotten engaged. I told her, that's okay. She had saved her virginity for the man that was to be her husband and be the father of her children. That is what is important and what Yah cares about. Her husband could never accuse her of being in error. I also told her don't worry about any Christians that would attack her to accuse her of being in sin. They were the ones in sin for attacking her as modern day Pharisees. She married and raised 3 kids with him. The man involved took her virginity after gaining permission for her hand in marriage from her father and a covenant with her and married her therefore not sin. She limited herself to one sexual partner within the bounds of a covenant whom she married therefore not sin. The ceremony is the celebration of the covenant and to reinforce it with vows before other witnesses to confirm their covenant. Anyone that would accuse them of being in sin first off lacks love and is guilty of the error of the Church of Ephesus (Rev 2). Add on top of that they are guilty of following the ways of a Jezebel in the Church of Thyatira and face significant curses brought down on their lives.

Teaching young men that any sexual activities even in their mind to find a girl sexually attractive is sin just proves to them they are all guilty of fornication already so they don't worry about it going further into what is actually sin according to the law.

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Re: What does the Bible mean by "fornication"?

Post #53

Post by Yahu »

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
...
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

For those that have faith that fornication is 'any sexual contact' before a legal, church sanctioned wedding, so be it. You are judged by that standard and it is sin for you if you violate that standard.

Personally I don't follow that definition and have faith in my understanding of what constitutes sexual sin. I have no fear of 'loss of salvation' or any fear that Im not saved. I don't even fear loss of rewards.

I also will stand against anyone that pushes a 'loss of salvation' doctrine for not following their definitions that turns salvation into a 'works based salvation'.

Granted, Paul was not talking about sexual sin in this passage but equating following the dietary laws or what days of worship were followed. It is about arguments over what is allowed verses what is forbidden. It applies equally to disputes over what constitutes fornication.

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Post #54

Post by Wootah »

YahDough wrote: [Replying to post 21 by Yahu]


I'm glad you have made it more clear who you are and where you stand. . I judged you as an enemy of the gospel pf Christ and righteousness.. You have judged me even worse. I belong to Jesus.
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Re: What does the Bible mean by "fornication"?

Post #55

Post by Danmark »

Yahu wrote:I don't tolerate Pharisees that expand the law and that go around slapping the 'little ones' telling them they aren't qualified for heaven. You are better off to commit suicide they face Yeshua's wrath for that according to Him.

I wouldn't want to trade positions with someone like you to stand before the Judgement seat of Yeshua.

My own biggest error is that I don't teach in humility as Paul recommends. Some people just need a good slap in the face before they wake up and see how badly they are in error. You have to: "to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down ..." the bondage to false doctrine before people can see truth.
Don't be too hard on yourself. Your failure to "teach in humility" may not be your biggest error. You also do not teach with consistency.
I don't tolerate Pharisees that expand the law and that go around slapping the 'little ones'
Some people just need a good slap in the face ....
Could it be that you are one of those who, as you say, "just need a good slap in the face before they wake up and see how badly they are in error?" Are you entirely sure you should be making such angry, violent judgments about the doctrines others sincerely believe in?

Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Matthew 7:1-3

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Re: What does the Bible mean by "fornication"?

Post #56

Post by Yahu »

Danmark wrote: Could it be that you are one of those who, as you say, "just need a good slap in the face before they wake up and see how badly they are in error?" Are you entirely sure you should be making such angry, violent judgments about the doctrines others sincerely believe in?
I don't care if someone wants to hold to a higher standard then required. There is nothing wrong with that. I even applaud that. It is attacking those that don't hold to that higher standard and try to tell them they aren't christians or can't go to heaven if you don't bow to their higher standards that are the problem IMO.

Twisting a single verse about fornicators and adulterers not inheriting the kingdom to say that THEIR definition of fornication prevents people entrance into the kingdom is nonsense. They don't even understand the passage. Entrance into the kingdom and inheritance as a heir are not even the same thing. It is a common misunderstanding between salvation and sanctification to begin with.

I have had 7 different girls offer me their virginity in my life. I turned all of them down. I consider it wrong to take a girl's virginity without taking her as your wife. Doing so would be a violation of the law against fornication. I have even had offers of marriage by divorced women that I turned down. Scripture is clear that marrying (or sexual intercourse with) a divorced woman is adultery. In that case, the standard I follow is higher then many Christians. How many men in the church have married divorced women?

I put aside my 1st wife when she turned up pregnant by another man. She married him, then divorced him and wanted me to take her back. That isn't allowed by scripture either. It turned out my wife had been drugged by a date rape drug to actively sabotage our marriage but when she married someone else, I couldn't take her back.

I hold to a very high moral standard but it is different then what most Christians define as the correct standard. In some cased I hold a higher standard and in others a lower standard but ALL of it is based on actually scripture not the modern false definition of fornication.
Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Matthew 7:1-3
That passage is about being judged by the standard you judge others by. I am not the one trying to uphold the higher standard and judging others for not doing so but the one being judged as being in error for actually following the actual law which doesn't set the standard as high. For example, ONLY those of the high priesthood were required to marry a virgin. It certainly isn't a requirement to get into heaven.

For most of my life I have even followed a very high standard BUT it isn't required for salvation. Salvation can NOT be bought by keeping to a standard of sexual purity as defined by modern Christianity.

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Re: What does the Bible mean by "fornication"?

Post #57

Post by Danmark »

Yahu wrote: I have had 7 different girls offer me their virginity in my life. I turned all of them down. I consider it wrong to take a girl's virginity without taking her as your wife. Doing so would be a violation of the law against fornication. I have even had offers of marriage by divorced women that I turned down. Scripture is clear that marrying (or sexual intercourse with) a divorced woman is adultery. In that case, the standard I follow is higher then many Christians. How many men in the church have married divorced women?

I put aside my 1st wife when she turned up pregnant by another man. She married him, then divorced him and wanted me to take her back. That isn't allowed by scripture either. It turned out my wife had been drugged by a date rape drug to actively sabotage our marriage but when she married someone else, I couldn't take her back.
The person you describe seems to be one who likes to brag about foolish things while claiming a 'high moral standard' to excuse behavior that is without mercy, love or consideration of others. What you've described is the perfect Pharisee Jesus condemned; straining gnats while swallowing camels. This presentation of yours further convinces me of the moral bankruptcy of this version of 'Christianity.' It is the polar opposite of the Christian life and attitude I was exposed to in my youth. I am very happy to have nothing to do with such an anti Christian, anti love type of nominal 'Christianity.'

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Post #58

Post by Peds nurse »

[Replying to post 46 by Yahu]
On top of that, IMO you follow a path that turns grace into something evil, ie Laciviousness by your claims that sexual sins according to you not only limit inheritance in the kingdom but entrance into the kingdom. You deny grace and make it evil for those that are guilty of sexual sin.

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Yahu....I think I can speak for everyone when I say, we tire of the slanderous accusations that are made against fellow debaters. Why must a person have to accuse someone of turning something into evil, to make a valid point in debating? I fear, your time on this forum is drawing to an end, if the personal accusations don't subside VERY, VERY, soon!

I believe you are capable of better!


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Re: What does the Bible mean by "fornication"?

Post #59

Post by Peds nurse »

[Replying to post 56 by Yahu]

I do have a question Yahu. Where is all the grace in all this? Are you bragging that your moral standards are higher than what Jesus did? The woman caught in adultery, was she shunned? I seem to recall that she was forgiven, and adopted as a child of God. What about the prostitute at the well? She wasn't shunned, but given grace and shown love. If a person's standards are so high that it causes isolation, what's the point of having them?

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Danmark
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Grace

Post #60

Post by Danmark »

Peds nurse wrote: [Replying to post 56 by Yahu]

I do have a question Yahu. Where is all the grace in all this? Are you bragging that your moral standards are higher than what Jesus did? The woman caught in adultery, was she shunned? I seem to recall that she was forgiven, and adopted as a child of God. What about the prostitute at the well? She wasn't shunned, but given grace and shown love. If a person's standards are so high that it causes isolation, what's the point of having them?
Thank you Peds. You are pointing to what may be the essence of true Christianity and certainly its most important characteristic at least from a universal point of view,
Grace.
I see 'Grace' as a combination of good virtues:
Love
Forgiveness
Patience

This is the opposite of what Yahu describes.
His post touts a proud, even bragging attitude about being better than others and rejecting those who have made certain mistakes, condemning them.
Unfortunately we see too much of this modern day Pharisaical attitude. We see it particularly in the popular media version of 'Christianity.' We see it too in some of our secular leaders, those who talk about 'losers' and offer worse epithets and labels for their competitors. This is the opposite of true Christianity.

Jesus spoke of forgiveness, particularly forgiveness for the unlovely, the unpopular, even the despised. My sense of the Jesus of Nazareth was of a man who spoke not only of kindness, love, and forgiveness, but the of the kind of forgiveness that does not judge; it just forgives and encourages change.

I may not buy the supernatural aspect that too many, see as the crux of Christianity, but I do not see why we all, whatever our views, cannot embrace the 'Grace' that Jesus of Nazareth preached and lived.

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