Civil Debates on Christianity and Religions

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Elijah John
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:09 pm  Theological gymnastics. Reply with quote

1) Theological Gymnastic: God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but monotheism is still claimed.

Simple alternative: The Father alone is God.

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2) Theological Gymnastic: Jesus is entirely human, and entirely God.

Simple alternative: Jesus is an exceptional human being, completely human and entirely devoted to his God.

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3) Theological Gymnastic: God needs blood in order to forgive, but human sacrifice is forbidden, so God became man in order to sacrifice himself to himself on our behalf.

Simple alternative: God does not want nor does He need blood, but only sincere repentance in order to forgive.

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For debate, in each (or any) of these three cases, which is the more a) Biblical and the more b) reasonable alternative?

Please support your answers.
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 21: Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:25 am
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Re: Theological gymnastics.

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Elijah John wrote:

Checkpoint wrote:


It is a "myth" embraced by Peter, by John, by the writer of Hebrews, and by Paul.



And do you give primacy to their POV, is it the Pauline and the Johannine lens you use in order to read the rest of the Bible? (including the OT and the Synoptics?)

Interestingly enough, I have a book called "Mythmaker" Paul and the invention of Christianity.

I guess I have a "lens" too. Wink


I give primacy to the whole NT, without which we would not have Christianity.

Just as there would be no Judaism without its Tanakh, what we call the OT.

Yes, we all have our lens, but some fail to recognise it in themselves.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 22: Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:01 am
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Checkpoint wrote:

Elijah John wrote:

Checkpoint wrote:


It is a "myth" embraced by Peter, by John, by the writer of Hebrews, and by Paul.



And do you give primacy to their POV, is it the Pauline and the Johannine lens you use in order to read the rest of the Bible? (including the OT and the Synoptics?)

Interestingly enough, I have a book called "Mythmaker" Paul and the invention of Christianity.

I guess I have a "lens" too. Wink


I give primacy to the whole NT, without which we would not have Christianity.

Just as there would be no Judaism without its Tanakh, what we call the OT.

Yes, we all have our lens, but some fail to recognise it in themselves.


Why do you suppose Evanelicals suggest the new convert begin their Bible study/reading with the Gospel of John? (Bill Bright's Four Spiritual Laws, and others)

Why not at the beginning of the NT, Matthew? Or with the earliest Gospel, the most one closest to the events spoken of, Mark?

Why do Evangelicals ELEVATE John above the other Gospels?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 23: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:07 am
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[quote="Elijah John"]
catnip wrote:

Elijah John wrote:

Quote:
1) Theological Gymnastic: God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but monotheism is still claimed.

Simple alternative: The Father alone is God.


What is the Holy Spirit, then? Because it is referred to often enough in scripture. .


Good question. The Holy Spirit is the Holy Sprirt OF YHVH, the Father. The Father is transcendant, entroned in Heaven, and immanent within us and among us in the Holy Spirit.

But the Holy Spirit is not a separate "Person".

Jesus says it his the Spirit of the Father who will speak for us when we are persecuted.

"Of" meaning part of, not separate from.

Jesus was a man filled with the Holy Spirit of our Father, and was exceptional because he was more conformed to the image of our Father than any of us are.


Yes, I agree with that because God is in and through his creation. The Holy Spirit is merely God. As I have said in the past, referring to "persons" is a terrible mistake. There is no dividing the substance and they say so themselves. There is ONE God, one divinity, no separation. But why didn't Jesus tell the Pharisees when they accused him when he was healing on the Sabbath that we should not say anything against the Father rather than the Holy Spirit? (I am not arguing for the Trinity, but for understanding the roles in which we experience God and I think that is what Jesus was speaking about.)

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 24: Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:19 pm
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[quote="Elijah John"]
[quote="YahDough"]
Elijah John wrote:


Quote:
And YHVH is my LORD and Savior, (and, by the way, that is Biblical, not mockery.) So I am not qualified because I have a different take on Scripture than you do?

Your effort to try to bypass Christ Jesus in the Godhead is notable. It leads me to think that you are not a saved Christian.


Quote:
I'm glad you are not in charge of determining who is saved, and who is not. I think I will trust YHVH God for that, not you.

YHVH has given that job to Jesus. not me.

Jn:14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Quote:
Perhaps God will forgive Evangelicals for their attempt to limit His Grace and mercy.

Perhaps God will forgive you for speaking evil of evangelists.

Quote:
Besides, I am not bypassing Jesus:

I contend that you are. Are you baptized in the name of Jesus Christ?

Quote:
Simple, straightforward without complex and baffling theological gymnastics such as: "God dying to sacrifice himself TO himself".

There goes your own gymnastics It's more simple than that. God sacrificed His Son in order to keep those who believe in Him from perishing forever.

Quote:
Do you think God judges us based on getting our theology "right"?.. Or by our attitudes of our heart towards God and our fellow humans"

God judges everything. If our theology is right our attitudes should be right also.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 25: Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:52 am
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[Replying to post 22 by Elijah John]

Quote:
Why do Evangelicals ELEVATE John above the other Gospels?


Why do you elevate the other Gospels above John?

We all have a lens we look through, remember?

What is the state of our eyes, what kind of light do we see?

Jesus has a word for us.

Matthew 6:

22 The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light,
23 but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 26: Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:10 am
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Checkpoint wrote:

[Replying to post 22 by Elijah John]

Quote:
Why do Evangelicals ELEVATE John above the other Gospels?


Why do you elevate the other Gospels above John?

We all have a lens we look through, remember?

What is the state of our eyes, what kind of light do we see?

Jesus has a word for us.

Matthew 6:

22 The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light,
23 but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!


I give them more creedence because they are older, the sound more like a Jewish Jesus, and Jesus was a Jew.

They are more in accord with each other, and less with John. John is the outlier, the odd man out, imo.

As time goes on, the claims increase. John has more and bolder claims than the other Gospels. That raises red flags for me, and smacks of a process of mythologization.

Yes, my lens is the Hebrew context of the OT and the Synoptic Gospels. So I read John and Paul with a healthy dose of skepticism.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 27: Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:44 am
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[quote="YahDough"]
[quote="Elijah John"]
YahDough wrote:

Elijah John wrote:


Quote:
And YHVH is my LORD and Savior, (and, by the way, that is Biblical, not mockery.) So I am not qualified because I have a different take on Scripture than you do?

Your effort to try to bypass Christ Jesus in the Godhead is notable. It leads me to think that you are not a saved Christian.


Quote:
I'm glad you are not in charge of determining who is saved, and who is not. I think I will trust YHVH God for that, not you.

YHVH has given that job to Jesus. not me.

Jn:14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


I have explained to you how Jesus is essential for me in understanding how to approach the Father.


YahDough wrote:

Quote:
Perhaps God will forgive Evangelicals for their attempt to limit His Grace and mercy.

Perhaps God will forgive you for speaking evil of evangelists.


If I "speak evil" of Evangelicals, it is only to the degree that Evangelicals "speak evil" of everyone else. I was unaware that being critical of Evangelicals was a sin.

YahDough wrote:

Quote:
Besides, I am not bypassing Jesus:

I contend that you are.
Prove it.

YahDough wrote:

Are you baptized in the name of Jesus Christ?


I read that question as "are you one of us, or one of them?"

YahDough wrote:

Quote:
Simple, straightforward without complex and baffling theological gymnastics such as: "God dying to sacrifice himself TO himself".

There goes your own gymnastics It's more simple than that. God sacrificed His Son in order to keep those who believe in Him from perishing forever.


Simple repentance, which I advocate, is not complex, nor is it theological gymnastics. God "sacrificing himself to himself" for anyone's benefit, is complex, nonsensical and gymnastics.

YahDough wrote:

Quote:
Do you think God judges us based on getting our theology "right"?.. Or by our attitudes of our heart towards God and our fellow humans"

God judges everything. If our theology is right our attitudes should be right also.


Evangelicals often do not recognize their own brothers and sisters when they encounter them, just because they may profess another faith, or no religion at all. They consider even good people who disagree not as fellow children of God, but as children of the devil and as "the lost". They seldom see beyond their own exclusive theology. So how has their theology helped them to be better human beings? Believing that others who don't believe like they do are tortured in hell forever just for NOT believing like they do, is not a good or right attitude.

Frankly, it is disgusting.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 28: Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:37 am
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YahDough wrote:

You have used your own "theological gymnastics" to mock the truth.

Your debate question is bogus. You falsely generalize Christians without even having a good concept of who Christ Jesus is.

If Jesus is not your Lord and Savior your debate for truth in this matter has little value.


Warning Moderator Final Warning

You have had multiple warnings for inappropriate tactics and personal comments. This one makes you a candidate for Probation or Suspension.


Please review the Rules.


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Moderator final warnings serve as the last strike towards users. Additional violations will result in a probation vote. Further infractions will lead to banishment. Any challenges or replies to moderator warnings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 29: Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:54 am
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YahDough wrote:

Your effort to try to bypass Christ Jesus in the Godhead is notable. It leads me to think that you are not a saved Christian.


Warning Moderator Warning

Yet another inappropriate personal remark. Is this an attempt to set a record for infractions or to become a martyr?

Self-righteousness and judgmentalism are not conducive to honorable debate.





Please review our Rules.

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Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

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