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Zzyzx
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:05 pm  If Jesus was who he is claimed to have been . . . Reply with quote

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If Jesus was who he is claimed to have been WHY didn't he say or do anything new or useful?
http://churchandstate.org.uk/2016/04/christianitys-nightmare-question/
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 81: Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:01 am
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Re: If Jesus was who he is claimed to have been . . .

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[Replying to post 80 by liamconnor]

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study how history is done in general; then apply the same methods to the N.T.


Done. Show me a secular history book that teaches that the events spoken of in the New Testament really did happen - resurrection and all.
I am not aware of any such books.

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MPG Recipient Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 82: Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:45 pm
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Re: If Jesus was who he is claimed to have been . . .

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[Replying to post 81 by rikuoamero]

That is not proper history.

It is YOU who are making a dichotomy between secular and religious. I follow real history by treating them as documents. The letter written to a Corinth church is a document; a Graeco/Roman bio which we call Mark is another. So is a two volume work with we call Luke/Acts. Plutarch's writings are documents. They are all documents. From them we establish history. The fact that those pertaining to Jesus are all bound within a single binding and regarded as sacred is irrelevant to the historian of the period.

You also seem to be very confused with your terminology. By "secular" I suppose you mean "having no religious significance" (and, good luck finding that in the ancient world) and void of the miraculous. So, are you asking me to show you a document void both of religion and miracles which corroborates the miraculous? Contradiction.

So then, if you want to act like an historian, start thinking of documents, not "sacred books". and start analyzing your own criteria.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 83: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:02 pm
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rikuoamero wrote:

liamconnor wrote:

liamconnor wrote:

study how history is done in general; then apply the same methods to the N.T.


Done. Show me a secular history book that teaches that the events spoken of in the New Testament really did happen - resurrection and all.
I am not aware of any such books.


That is not proper history.

Do you claim professional / academic / scholarly expertise in history? If not, you are speaking as a layman with an opinion.

rikuoamero wrote:

It is YOU who are making a dichotomy between secular and religious. I follow real history by treating them as documents.

Outstanding dodge.

IS there a difference (or dichotomy) between secular and religious? Or is that something that Rikuo made up?

1) It should not be surprising that some religious literature supports the “resurrection” and other supernatural tales.

2) It WOULD be surprising if non-religious literature supported such things. Are there any examples?

I trust that readers understand that the “resurrection” story appears ONLY in religion-promotional literature – and is not set forth as literal truth by historians (outside of religious literature).

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 84: Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:20 pm
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[Replying to post 83 by Zzyzx]
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Do you claim professional / academic / scholarly expertise in history? If not, you are speaking as a layman with an opinion.



I claim the place of a very, very, educated man in this particular historical study. I claim to have formal degrees. These degrees have equipped me to continue my studies on my own.


I suspect you have nothing of the above based on your responses.



I suspect you have no ability to engage a real historical debate.

I am willing to be proved wrong, obviously.


But really, are you so illogical as to post this

Quote:

2) It WOULD be surprising if non-religious literature supported such things. Are there any examples?



Are you really asking for an ancient historian to assent to the resurrection but not really care about it? To say "yep, that happened, but it makes no difference to my life....now, hmmm....what is the next thing I will investigate...ah yes, the wars in Germania"?

I already anticipated this.

You obviously did not read it or did not understand it.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 85: Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:11 am
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Re: If Jesus was who he is claimed to have been . . .

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[Replying to post 82 by liamconnor]

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So is a two volume work with we call Luke/Acts. Plutarch's writings are documents.


And the writings in the Quran and Hadith are documents, and yet, NOT ONCE, have you ever been seen on this site saying that yes Muhammed DID talk to angels, yes Muhammed DID declare Jesus to be just a prophet, and that yes, Muhammed heard from God himself that the resurrection of Jesus was a lie.

Quote:
By "secular" I suppose you mean "having no religious significance" (and, good luck finding that in the ancient world)

I meant a modern history book, written today, with no bias towards any religion. I devoured history books when I was younger. The most they would say about this or that religion was "The people of the time believed X did Y, or that their god(s) did X or Y". They never NOT ONCE said anything like "Magical Person X DID do Y" or "God Z DID do A".
So when you constantly try to tell us here how to do and approach history, you're literally going against what I've seen EVERY OTHER actual historian do.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 86: Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:29 pm
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Zzyzx wrote:

.
If Jesus was who he is claimed to have been WHY didn't he say or do anything new or useful?
http://churchandstate.org.uk/2016/04/christianitys-nightmare-question/


Seems to me if Jesus taught about invisible 'bugs' making people sick so wash your food and hands, the general mindset at the time would have helplessly turned it into something superstitious and terrifying. I don't believe Jesus knew about these things himself, so it surprises me not that he didn't attempt to make inroads like Llewellen and Pasteur and all their forbears.

What Jesus DID say that WAS new and 'useful' was along the lines of a surefire way to avoid God's eternal punishment for unbelievers (in him). The whole Heaven-Hell concept came from Jesus, didn't it? Paul provided the blood atonement and embellished/enriched the idea, but before Jesus, there was no 'promise' of eternal glory one could obtain for one's self simply through himself (believing in him).

This ^^^ is the crux of the Christian faith I see throughout the fundamentalists and evangelicals, to the exclusion of brotherly love (except for other born again or saved people) and loving your enemies by harshly reminding them of the place in Hell their lack of belief will earn them.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 87: Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:16 pm
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Re: If Jesus was who he is claimed to have been . . .

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liamconnor wrote:

Zzyzx wrote:

Do you claim professional / academic / scholarly expertise in history? If not, you are speaking as a layman with an opinion.


I claim the place of a very, very, educated man in this particular historical study. I claim to have formal degrees. These degrees have equipped me to continue my studies on my own.

Impressive claim. Perhaps those sterling credentials will be reflected in posts.

liamconnor wrote:

I suspect you have nothing of the above based on your responses.

Heck no. I just jumped off the turnip truck so I'm really impressed by and in awe of anyone who went to high school.

liamconnor wrote:

I suspect you have no ability to engage a real historical debate.

Opinion noted. Condescending attitude noted.

In this Forum we debate religion. Those who desire historical debates might be well advised to find a history buff forum where their expertise will be revered.

liamconnor wrote:

I am willing to be proved wrong, obviously.

Wrong? That must approach inconceivable.

liamconnor wrote:

But really, are you so illogical as to post this

Readers will decide for themselves whether my points are illogical – 1600 views of this thread so far.

liamconnor wrote:

Zzyzx wrote:

It WOULD be surprising if non-religious literature supported such things. Are there any examples?


Are you really asking for an ancient historian to assent to the resurrection but not really care about it?

Nope. I ask for ANY contemporary or near-contemporary accounts of the “resurrection” by people outside the Jesus Movement. Salesmen for the company are not depended upon for an impartial account of the titular head of the company.

Gospels tell MANY “back from the dead” incidents. It would seem reasonable that SOME source outside the tales told by gospel writers would have noticed and recorded THIRTY or more formerly dead people walking around.

However, there are no records of any chronicler of the era mentioning such an astonishing event. It is not until decades or generations later that stories are written claiming that those things happened.

Those who eventually told the tale are all promoters of the emerging religion. However, the writers cannot be identified with certainty (famous names were assigned later) and none can be shown to have witnessed the events they describe (as though they had personal knowledge). What were their sources of information – folklore, oral tradition, rumors, myths?

Even at that, no one is said to have witnessed a long-dead body coming back to life. It is assumed to have happened based upon unverified tales about a tomb being found empty and unverified tales that the deceased visited supporters.

Many tombs are found empty without leading to the conclusion that the deceased came back to life. Many supposedly (or really) dead people are reportedly “seen” postmortem. Are those accounts taken seriously?

If similar tales were told about other proposed supernatural characters would the evidence be sufficient to convince historians that the deceased did, actually, come back to life? Is that what people learn when they study history in school?

liamconnor wrote:

To say "yep, that happened, but it makes no difference to my life....now, hmmm....what is the next thing I will investigate...ah yes, the wars in Germania"?

Is this the response of a “very, very educated man”?

liamconnor wrote:

You obviously did not read it or did not understand it.

Maybe someday I can learn enough from very, very educated people to become a credible debater.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 88: Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:01 am
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liamconnor wrote:

[Replying to post 83 by Zzyzx]
Quote:

Do you claim professional / academic / scholarly expertise in history? If not, you are speaking as a layman with an opinion.



I claim the place of a very, very, educated man in this particular historical study. I claim to have formal degrees. These degrees have equipped me to continue my studies on my own.


I suspect you have nothing of the above based on your responses.


I suspect you have no ability to engage a real historical debate.........


You obviously did not read it or did not understand it.


Warning Moderator Warning


It is well and good to assert your credentials, especially in light of the fact that you were challenged on them.

But stating negative assumptions about the qualifications of another crosses the line into condescension and personal attack.

Please review our Rules.

______________

Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

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