Discussion of "perfect."

Willum · Post by **Willum** » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:44 pm

So we often come across the use of perfect and God in the same sentence.
I am finding this to be an Inigo Montoya moment for myself: I didn't seem to find an answer on
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=29019

Can anyone describe how God is perfect, without calling on perfection in the definition. Why and how is God perfect?
Cite an example if you would as well...

Just as a spoiler --
God is perfect because he created the Universe and the Universe is perfect.

Well, the universe isn't perfect, if you catch my drift...

In order to make this debate, I suppose I'll have to take a position -but I really wouldn't mind a roarin' discussion...

Position: God is imperfect because none of his actions can be described as such, and when "perfection," is used it is used definitionally, not descriptively.

(I know, it's weak, but can justify getting the ball rolling.)

rikuoamero · Post by **rikuoamero** » Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:21 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote:
marco wrote: Demonstrations of his imperfection would be his need to have a rest after his primal labours

#QUESTION Does the fact that Genesis 2.2 says God "rested" on the 7th day mean God can get tired?

No the Hebrew word "shebeth" translated as "rest" in English, essentially means to cease, desist, stop (an activity), so it doesn't necessarily mean to stop because of fatigue. In the the context of the 7th creative day then we can reasonably conclude it simply means God ceased (desisted/stopped) his creative works at the end of the 6th day.

[/img]
http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebibl ... .htm#S7673

Okay, so why would God allow for the wrong word here (rest) to be so prevalent? Until this post from you, I honestly thought and believed that 'rest' WAS the correct translation.
Imagine if I was still a Christian. This would mean that I'd be believing something false about God. I'd be believing that he rested, maybe something like a human does, after his great labour.
If the Bible authors were 'inspired' by God, how come the same didn't happen to the translators? How come there was no nudging in the translator's minds?
Or are Christians expected to learn Ancient Hebrew, in order to fully understand God? If so, this is as stupid as a Muslim saying that we have to learn Arabic to understand Allah.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:32 pm

anontheist wrote: So, when you talk about God's perfection, you are suggesting it is only in relation to His intelligence, not to His being perfect as such. In other words, you do not see God as being perfect only as having perfect intelligence?

"only having perfect intelligence" as opposed to... what?

I'm sorry I cannot really answer the questions since I don't really understanding it.

anontheist wrote:
Because being "perfect" there could be no "wants."

You keep saying that but I do not agree.

anontheist wrote: What would motivate a desire?

Creativity. What is imagination? Isn't it the ability to think, have a mind that explores possible (and impossible) avenues. We are all "Creators" in our imagination because there all things are possible in our minds.

To illustrate: Let's look at it from a human point of view, I can imagine a world where... clouds were made of cotton wool that when you ate it, it changed into fairies in my stomach that flew out of my mouth when I sing. I can imagine a colour that when you painted it made music that made the stars shift into patterns of animals, I can imagine...get the picture, is there actually a LIMIT to what I can imagine? What if I had the power to make all those (unlimited) scenerios a reality? Would deciding to do so mean I'm incomplete? Imperfect in some way? I wouldn't need them all to function or survive or even be happy. I'm perfectly happy without musical clouds, but if I were god and decided to make them how is that evidence of "imperfect"? Is it not rather evidence that am I both intelligent, creative and omnipotent?

JW

Tired of the Nonsense · Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:48 pm

Willum wrote: So we often come across the use of perfect and God in the same sentence.
I am finding this to be an Inigo Montoya moment for myself: I didn't seem to find an answer on
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=29019

Can anyone describe how God is perfect, without calling on perfection in the definition. Why and how is God perfect?
Cite an example if you would as well...

Just as a spoiler --
God is perfect because he created the Universe and the Universe is perfect.

Well, the universe isn't perfect, if you catch my drift...

In order to make this debate, I suppose I'll have to take a position -but I really wouldn't mind a roarin' discussion...

Position: God is imperfect because none of his actions can be described as such, and when "perfection," is used it is used definitionally, not descriptively.

(I know, it's weak, but can justify getting the ball rolling.)

A person may come into possession of an object, and because it is exactly what they wanted, because it fits their needs and wants exactly, they consider the object to be "perfect." At a later time another person may come into possession of the same item, in exactly the same condition, and yet decide that the object needs to be altered in some way, to better bring it into compliance to suit their needs and wants (painting a red 250 SWB Ferrari bright pink

for example), so as to better conform to their idea of "perfect." Because there is no absolute standard of perfection. There are objects, there are events, and there are opinions.

Willum · Post by **Willum** » Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:08 pm

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

So, I am getting there is no substance behind the word, "perfect," when used in context with God.

I'd like to ask the forum to say what they say it means when they use it.
Can you tell me what it means when you use it?

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:37 pm

Willum wrote: [Replying to JehovahsWitness]

So, I am getting there is no substance behind the word, "perfect," when used in context with God.

I'd like to ask the forum to say what they say it means when they use it.
Can you tell me what it means when you use it?

See post 8 by JehovahsWitness

Willum · Post by **Willum** » Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:46 pm

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Hi, JW, there was a reason I both liked and replied to that thread.

anontheist · Post by **anontheist** » Thu Jul 07, 2016 6:54 pm

[Replying to post 32 by JehovahsWitness]

JehovahsWitness interesting response;

"only having perfect intelligence" as opposed to... what?

I'm sorry I cannot really answer the questions since I don't really understanding it.

So, you do not understand the difference between one's intellect and one's essence? Do you believe God is simply a mind?

You keep saying that but I do not agree.

Perfect:
adjective |ËˆpÉ™rfikt|
1 having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be
free from any flaw or defect in condition or quality; faultless
precisely accurate; exact
2 [ attrib. ] absolute; complete

Do you agree with the definition or do you have another?

Creativity. What is imagination? Isn't it the ability to think, have a mind that explores possible (and impossible) avenues. We are all "Creators" in our imagination because there all things are possible in our minds.

Again, you are anthropomorphizing God. He is not human. (Unless you think he is, like the Mormons.) What would be the need to explore anything if you know everything? One only "explores" what you do not know, but if you are God there is no such thing as explore, because there is nothing to explore. All is known to you.

Justin108 · Post by **Justin108** » Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:18 am

JLB32168 wrote: Weâ€™re addressing a specific perfect entity â€“ the Judeo-Christian one. He is predisposed to love.

Yes but him being predisposed to love has nothing to do with his perfection. It's an unrelated quality. He is predisposed to love and he is perfect, but he is not predisposed to love because he is perfect. His perfection is not the cause for his predisposition to love.

JLB32168 wrote:How does God create a perfect world since a perfect world wouldnâ€™t need to be created but could will itself into existence.

Something cannot "will itself into existence" as it needs to exist before being able to "will" anything. This is a logical contradiction. This is no different from saying that "If God didn't exist, he would will himself into existence and then he would exist. Therefore God will always exist". This is a bastardized version of the Modal Ontological Argument

JLB32168 · Post by **JLB32168** » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:03 am

Justin108 wrote:He is predisposed to love and he is perfect, but he is not predisposed to love because he is perfect.

I said that God was predisposed to love others and that this is why He created, and I said that God was perfect. Youâ€™re the only one who has inferred that I said X caused Y.

Justin108 wrote:Something cannot "will itself into existence" as it needs to exist before being able to "will" anything. This is a logical contradiction.

I agree. That is why it is illogical to say â€œIf God created an imperfect world, his actions were less than perfect.â€�

Created things cannot be anything other than imperfect since they must be willed into existence and the inability to be self-sustaining indicates imperfection.

JLB32168 · Post by **JLB32168** » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:06 am

Willum wrote:I'd like to ask the forum to say what they say it means when they use it.

Can you tell me what it means when you use it?

Plenty of people have commented on it. Are you reading all the posts?

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