Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

[Zzyzx]

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Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

All we “know� about the Satan character is from the POV of Bible writers – who claim that “he� is inferior to “God� (and presumably Jesus).

Since Bible writers and promoters have a vested interest in glorifying their favorite God(s) they could be expected to bad-mouth / demean / discredit the competition.

Since there is no assurance that there is only one “god� (or three-in-one for Christendom), the opposition might be one (or more) of the thousands of proposed gods. In fact, the only “evidence� for any of them consists of unverified tales, testimonials, conjectures, opinions, beliefs.

Thus, is there any sound reason that “Satan� could not be one of the other proposed gods and be equal in “power� to the Bible God?

“The Bible says� is NOT acceptable as proof of truth in this C&A sub-forum or in this thread.

Perhaps “Satan� isn't really the “bad guy� he is made out to be by promoters of the Bible God. Maybe “he� is another one of the “gods� and is equal to the Bible God and/or Jesus – and no more bad or good (or real or unreal) than they are.

It does not seem as though God and/or Jesus are able to defeat or eliminate Satan. Wonder why?

[ttruscott]

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Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

In the Christian Mythos Satan is a created being trying to achieve true goodhood to usurp YHWH. Good luck to both of you with that...

[Zzyzx]

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Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

In the Christian Mythos Satan is a created being trying to achieve true goodhood to usurp YHWH. Good luck to both of you with that...

Yes, that is the story told in Christendom -- glorifying its favorite god and proposing an evil "created" opposition character.

What says those stories are right and others wrong? Bigger book? "My god is bigger than your god"?

[catnip]

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Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

No. Satan is equivalent to sin and death. He is compared to, but is not actually Luciifer, a real world king (we now know, although that was forgotten for a time). Satan, in the Book of Job, is shown to be God's prosecutor in God's court. Over time, his legend morphs two ways: biblically and in popular culture. What most people believe about Satan is more from medieval mythology than what is written.

All we “know� about the Satan character is from the POV of Bible writers – who claim that “he� is inferior to “God� (and presumably Jesus).

As I said above, Satan is equated with sin and death in scripture and temptation. But Satan can actively do nothing and is ascribed no particular powers. When Jesus died on the cross he had victory over sin and death and in the tradition of the Church Fathers, he freed us from bondage to sin and death (Satan).

Since Bible writers and promoters have a vested interest in glorifying their favorite God(s) they could be expected to bad-mouth / demean / discredit the competition.

If God is the creator of all things then God is also the creator of any evil being, also. It stands to reason that if this is the case, God would not create another god to compete against him. Sin is rebellion against God; Satan rebelled against God.

Isaiah 45:5 I am the Lord and there is no other (god).

Since there is no assurance that there is only one “god� (or three-in-one for Christendom), the opposition might be one (or more) of the thousands of proposed gods. In fact, the only “evidence� for any of them consists of unverified tales, testimonials, conjectures, opinions, beliefs.

As far as I have been able to discern everywhere where it suggests the worship of other gods, it is closely followed by warnings against worshiping idols.

Thus, is there any sound reason that “Satan� could not be one of the other proposed gods and be equal in “power� to the Bible God?

What you are suggesting is that there is a duality and that goes against the teachings of the ancient faith entirely. There are some fundamentalist groups that ascribe godly powers to Satan but scripture never does. Theirs are fear based religions.

“The Bible says� is NOT acceptable as proof of truth in this C&A sub-forum or in this thread.

It may not be "proof" but it is the basis for the myths, albeit that the myths have grown and Satan was given more power through history especially in the medieval churches through such things as Dante's Inferno, etc. In short, sermons on hell and damnation packed the pews and Satan was a popular draw. Savonarola and his Bonfire of the Vanities, for example.

Perhaps “Satan� isn't really the “bad guy� he is made out to be by promoters of the Bible God. Maybe “he� is another one of the “gods� and is equal to the Bible God and/or Jesus – and no more bad or good (or real or unreal) than they are.

Either you are discussing Christianity or you are just making up your own version of a religion? It makes no sense whatsoever to attempt to claim that the Bible is not proof that the myth of Satan has a source and then, as an atheist who claims there are no gods, to suggest that there are other gods. Either you are discussing Christianity or you are not. In Christianity, at the very least, Satan is not a god and cannot be one. Some have taken the myth of Satan all the way to the point of an entirely new religion that is not ancient at all, but even that is based on the mythos of scripture.

It does not seem as though God and/or Jesus are able to defeat or eliminate Satan. Wonder why?

Christus Victor, Christ victorious

The New Testament is all about the victory of Christ over sin and death (Satan). It is the entire Christian theology, the point of it all.

Romans 8 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

As long as we are ruled by our ego/soul rather than by our spirit (true self, god self) then we propagate Satan and the power of Satan, evil, in this world. Like the many pairs of twins in scripture, there is the evil twin.

Romans 9
Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.�[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.�[e] KJV

Read carefully. The older will serve the younger. The personality develops . . .

[JLB32168]

Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

One cannot prove gods, much less Satan exists so why are you asking the question? Isn’t it a bit silly to do so?

[catnip]

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Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

In the Christian Mythos Satan is a created being trying to achieve true goodhood to usurp YHWH. Good luck to both of you with that...

Yes, that is the story told in Christendom -- glorifying its favorite god and proposing an evil "created" opposition character.

What says those stories are right and others wrong? Bigger book? "My god is bigger than your god"?

Sure. You can just make up your own theology. People do it all the time. People make up whole religions, Jediism, for example. But it isn't an argument against someone else's theology or, in other words, Christianity.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 6 by catnip]

Or you can investigate theology.
Christians are always claiming to look to the Bible for answers. But when you question what it means and pick and choose scripture, then you are inventing your own theology. It is simply a matter of degree, and do not put it on we non-religious types to augur your degree. As far as I can tell, you either challenge it all, or you accept it all.

It seems to me that Satan is a much more worthy contender for our souls. I mean look at his competition.
Satan wanted us to have freedom, with whatever penalties that comes with. God, is a horrid creature in the OT, empowering murderous psychopaths, committing terracide, and other senseless acts of vengeance.

Satan only pestered Job, and God got a good laugh out of that.
Or perhaps you'd like to be Job's wife or children?

When you think about it, God must have thought Job was an imbecile.

[OnceConvinced]

Perhaps “Satan� isn't really the “bad guy� he is made out to be by promoters of the Bible God. Maybe “he� is another one of the “gods� and is equal to the Bible God and/or Jesus – and no more bad or good (or real or unreal) than they are.

It does not seem as though God and/or Jesus are able to defeat or eliminate Satan. Wonder why?

It would not be at all surprising that bible writers would do their best to discredit and demonise other gods. If God is real and Satan is real, then it could very well be that they are equals. Of course the bible is going to put Satan down and try to place him beneath God. That would be expected from Christians in particular.

I see that members here are trying to use the bible to prove that Satan really is a low down dirty scum bag, but completely miss the point that if the writers of the bible wanted to place their God up on a pedestal as the one true God, while all others are worthless or evil, they are going to bad mouth them. They're going to try to make out that Satan was only an angel and created by their God. The bible would be completely biased against Satan.

[OnceConvinced]

Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

One cannot prove gods, much less Satan exists so why are you asking the question? Isn’t it a bit silly to do so?

Astute readers will realise that Zzyzx is creating a hypothetical scenario here, designed to get theists thinking about their own beliefs. Why do they believe Satan is evil? Are they really being objective or are they simply taken religious literature and mythology as fact without even thinking it through.

Perhaps there is also a curiosity as to why Christians believe Satan is evil when all they have to go by is their own religious propaganda?

However, is it really necessary or appropriate to harass someone over the topic of a specific thread? Do the questions make you uncomfortable? One could just move on to the next thread.

I for one am grateful for the questions that Z asks. It insures we have regular new topics to respond to.

[Zzyzx]

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Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

One cannot prove gods, much less Satan exists so why are you asking the question?

The lack of proof or evidence that gods (or “devils� or “demons�) does not prevent Theists from declaring they are REAL.

Although I do not accept their “evidence� (ancient unverified tales, testimonials, opinions, etc), I engage in debate – to call those claims into question – and to highlight the LACK of evidence to support even the most basic religious claims.

If the basic claims of a religion cannot be shown to be true, what is the value of the religion?

Isn’t it a bit silly to do so?

OC nailed my second place reason for asking “silly� questions – causing Theists to think about what they have been taught to believe. Although that may occur in some cases, I don't count on it.

The primary reason is to encourage Theists to “keep digging� – making more and more illogical statements while trying to defend ancient tales as though they were truthful and accurate. After doing this for years it would seem as though opponents would catch on – but they don't seem to.

My comments are NOT focused on opposition debaters, but upon READERS – the hundred, thousands and tens of thousands who view our threads (several are at or near 150,000 according to site statistics).

Theist debaters may be impressed by and proud of their defense of the flood story or the Exodus saga – making great leaps of faith trying to overcome down-to-Earth reasoning based on modern knowledge. Other hard-core believers may cheer and congratulate; however, I trust that many hundreds or thousands of readers are NOT hard-core.

They may be sincerely interested in considering alternatives to the religious stories they have probably been told over and over since infancy. When they discover things like the gospel writers identity being unknown to or disputed by Christian scholars and theologians – and the unlikelihood that there ever was a worldwide flood “to the tops of mountains� killing all animals (including humans), the alternatives may make more sense to them than the stories.

At the same time, I do not want to discourage Bible Defenders from posting their "explanations", excuses and interpretations (including word play, definition stretching, diversionary tactics, etc) because they provide material to dispute.