Probability of a Creator

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Monta
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Re: Probability of a Creator

Post #181

Post by Monta »

[Replying to post 173 by RonE]


Quote:
IMHO it is interesting that you cut & pasted all that I assume in an attempt to say that science cannot speak to the supernatural. And, that might be the case of your god except that Christians claim that theirs is a "personal" god. In as much as their god is expected to interface with humans. And, in doing so or failing to do so he reveals himself to observation. We are able to use scientific methods to study your god, or measure how he stacks up to your claims. Has he been shown to answer prayers? - NO. Has belief in this god made his followers more moral than others? - NO. etc... //

You can not evaluate the uncreate from the created.
One has Life in Itself, the other has life FROM this Life.
He is Infinite and Eternal; can you to measure that?

God is Love, so how are you to scientificaly measure LOVE?
Yes some inclination from those who have embraced it, but they are only recepients who vary as much as they are infinite in number.
Being finite, they can not partake of Divine Love Itself as it would destroy them same as one can not walk into the sun. Same reason Jesus the Christ
descended as Truth, the Word, and not as Love.

Yes, He answers prayers and He has made me moral. My friend tried to commit suicide three times but after she became Christian she is happy.
You can multiply this by millions.

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theStudent
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Post #182

Post by theStudent »

Okay.
Let's analyze the data.

On the matter of prayer, if a scientific study is done, that study must first of all determine what prayers are answered, and if they can be answered.
Has scientists determined that prayers can be answered?
Does scientists know what prayers are, and what prayers are acceptable?

Assuming that the answer to both questions will be that they are going by what people of various religious faiths say, the there is no way that data can be accurate.

Why?
Various religious faiths
  • have various gods.
  • have different views.
  • are not all acceptable by the God of the Bible, and therefore, are not all heard by that God.
    Proverbs 28:9; Isaiah 1:15; Isaiah 59:2; Matthew 6:5-8; 1 Timothy 5:8;
    These scriptures as well as many others show that the God of the Bible does not listen to all prayers.
    To give an example.
    At the Rio games, many atheletes made gestures of prayers. Sometimes in one event alone, multiple contestant may make these gestures. Which of those prayers does God listen to? The Bible clearly shows that God's interest is not in nationalism and its Olympic Games.
    Another example.
    The nations get together each year for the national day of prayer.
    The National Day of Prayer (36 U.S.C. § 119) is an annual day of observance held on the first Thursday of May, designated by the United States Congress, when people are asked "to turn to God in prayer and meditation". Each year since its inception, the president has signed a proclamation, encouraging all Americans to pray on this day.
    Which one of these nations does God listen to? The Bible clearly shows that God's interest is not in hypocrisy, much less patriotism.

    The Bible makes it very clear in more places than one, that not everyone who has a religion, is worshiping the God of the Bible, who is identified as the true and living God, the creator, and the omniscient one - who knows the thoughts of all men.
However, if persons who know what the Bible says about prayer, and worship of the true God, did do a report, it can be considered accurate, because they have an accurate "measuring rod".
Once we have that data, them we can narrow down the field of religious claims, and see how those measure up.
Many people have already done so, and the results are in opposition to your data.

So looking at the data you provided.
Since this one doesn't deal with prayer or scietific research on prayer, I will address it, by using a contrasting report.


Mean religious affiliation of inmates in U.S. prisons, as reported by prison chaplains in 2011
This statistic shows U.S. prison chaplains estimations of the percentage of inmates belonging to different organized faiths and religions as of 2011. Chaplains surveyed reported that on average 50.6 percent of inmates were of protestant faiths.


Since the report comes from the chaplains, consider a contrasting report




These ones as I stated are inaccurate.
Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer
This one giving added reasons why.
At least 10 studies of the effects of prayer have been carried out in the last six years, with mixed results. The new study was intended to overcome flaws in the earlier investigations. The report was scheduled to appear in The American Heart Journal next week, but the journal's publisher released it online yesterday.

In a hurriedly convened news conference, the study's authors, led by Dr. Herbert Benson, a cardiologist and director of the Mind/Body Medical Institute near Boston, said that the findings were not the last word on the effects of so-called intercessory prayer. But the results, they said, raised questions about how and whether patients should be told that prayers were being offered for them.

Other experts said the study underscored the question of whether prayer was an appropriate subject for scientific study.

"The problem with studying religion scientifically is that you do violence to the phenomenon by reducing it to basic elements that can be quantified, and that makes for bad science and bad religion," said Dr. Richard Sloan, a professor of behavioral medicine at Columbia and author of a forthcoming book, "Blind Faith: The Unholy Alliance of Religion and Medicine."

The study cost $2.4 million, and most of the money came from the John Templeton Foundation, which supports research into spirituality. The government has spent more than $2.3 million on prayer research since 2000.

Dean Marek, a chaplain at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn., and a co-author of the report, said the study said nothing about the power of personal prayer or about prayers for family members and friends.
Wow.
That's a lot of money to waste imo.

Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: a multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer.

Templeton Prayer Study FAIL!
I'm here wondering if the poster of this read it. It actually make a point I was thinking of.
Why would anyone of Jesus followers get sick, die, or be put in prison? Would one imaging that they would pray about these things? Why? And why would they expect God to prevent any of these thing happening? lol
Flaws of the Study
According to the research team, one of the issues may have been that those who knew they were being prayed for had “preformance anxiety,� which could complicate a heart condition. “It may have made them uncertain, wondering am I so sick they had to call in their prayer team?� Dr. Charles Bethea said. This does beg the question that if God were interested in healing people based on prayers for them, could he have not also prevented complications for these patients? Would God not be invested in being a part of this study if it were designed to prove his existance?

The other issue that is noted by Richard Dawkins in his book The God Delusion is that there really are issues with how the study was done in the first place. The full set up of the experiement, assuming that those involved believed in the power of prayer, was subjecting some people to what could be considered cruel because they were not chosen to be in the “prayed-for� group. Those who were part of the study could very well have gotten prayers from people that cared about them. Yet, why would they especially considering that those recieving prayers did worse?

No Results; Nothing Studied
The problem with the study was based in the hypothesis itself: if we pray for someone then God will intervene in some supernatural way to restore a person’s health. No doubt this is a wonderful concept, but it eliminates the truth about he subject being studied. In the same way that the Prosperity Gospel cult has undercut the basis of Christian belief, this study is based on a lie. Somehow people have come up with this idea that if we ask for something then we can obligate God to deliver.

What kind of God would he be if we were able to say just the right words or preform just the right action that would somehow get God’s attention and thus getting a desired result? This concept makes God not God at all, but rather some cosmic vending machine (insert prayer) or light switch.
[lol]

Prayer’s Power
This is not to deny the power that abides in prayer, but it does stand in the face of a fallacy. Prayer is not about getting our goodies from God, but it is about trusting God to do what is best. It is about building a relationship and leaning our the truth that comes from that relationship.

This study would be just as flawed if it were conducted on child-parent relationships and we expected that the child would receive everything she asked her parents for. No doubt we would think very poorly of a parent who did that and it would be no stretch to expect that the child would be a lazy, fat brat. [lol] No doubt we would be in quite a big mess if God also fulfilled every request to our liking.
It frankly gives me much satisfaction that this study was a failure, because it strengthens my trust in a God that cannot be contained and who works toward our best, even if we do not agree that our best is.
Thanks for sharing this B. LOL

Largest Study of Third-Party Prayer Suggests Such Prayer Not Effective In Reducing Complications Following Heart Surgery
"Our study was never intended to address the existence of God or the presence or absence of intelligent design in the universe. The study did not endeavor, either, to compare the efficacy of one prayer form over another or to assess participants' understanding of the nature and purpose of prayer. Finally, it was not our objective to discover whether prayers from one religious group work better than prayers from another," said co-author Father Dean Marek, Director, Chaplain Services, Mayo Clinic. Patients across the three groups had similar religious profiles. Most believed in spiritual healing and almost all believed friends or relatives would be praying for them. Investigators did not ask patients to have their friends and families withhold prayers, and assumed that many patients prayed for themselves during the study.

"One caveat is that with so many individuals receiving prayer from friends and family, as well as personal prayer, it may be impossible to disentangle the effects of study prayer from background prayer," said co-author Manoj Jain, Baptist Memorial Hospital, Memphis, Tennessee.
I think you get the point.
You have offered me zip.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

benchwarmer
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Post #183

Post by benchwarmer »

[Replying to post 182 by theStudent]

As usual you ignore or twist what has been presented to you. You asked for data then:

- complained about money wasted on collecting said data
- failed to understand what the data was trying show

Nowhere did I say the studies I posted were trying to prove God's existence or anything about personal prayer. Yet again you fail to understand the scientific method. A hypothesis was suggested, a study was conducted, data was gathered, the findings were inconclusive. Guess what? That's science in action.

Thus far you have yet to produce a single scientific, peer reviewed article about the topics in question. You almost got there with prayer. So close, I was thinking we were getting somewhere.

And what the heck is the following supposed to mean?
Why would anyone of Jesus followers get sick, die, or be put in prison? Would one imaging that they would pray about these things? Why? And why would they expect God to prevent any of these thing happening? lol
Are you asserting that followers of Jesus don't get sick? I used to be one, got sick all the time. Assertion refuted.

Are you asserting that followers of Jesus don't die? I been to enough funerals to know otherwise. Assertion refuted.

Are you asserting that followers of Jesus don't get put in prison? A quick google will tell you that's not true. Assertion refuted.

Perhaps you are trying to be sarcastic somehow. I don't get it.

As a side note, you're continued use of 'lol' is verging on insulting. Perhaps you can just stick to finding flaws in arguments and let your logic stand on it's own without the constant laughing at what others are presenting. Trust me, some of us are having a real hard time remaining civil.

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theStudent
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Post #184

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 183 by benchwarmer]
benchwarmer wrote:
theStudent wrote:
RonE wrote:Has he been shown to answer prayers? - NO. Has belief in this god made his followers more moral than others? - NO. etc...
Now let's see your data for this. Where is it?
Here you go:

Prayer:

http://web.med.harvard.edu/sites/RELEAS ... 1STEP.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567

Morality:

(this is a book which references various studies)



Free preview of the first part of the book:

https://books.google.ca/books?hl=en&lr= ... J&oi=fnd&p...
benchwarmer wrote:Nowhere did I say the studies I posted were trying to prove God's existence or anything about personal prayer.
So why did you post the links?
You mean it had nothing to do with dada for the claim that
RonE wrote:Has he been shown to answer prayers? - NO. Has belief in this god made his followers more moral than others? - NO. etc...
?
benchwarmer wrote:Are you asserting that followers of Jesus don't get sick? I used to be one, got sick all the time. Assertion refuted.

Are you asserting that followers of Jesus don't die? I been to enough funerals to know otherwise. Assertion refuted.

Are you asserting that followers of Jesus don't get put in prison? A quick google will tell you that's not true. Assertion refuted.

Perhaps you are trying to be sarcastic somehow. I don't get it.
None of the above.
I'm merely suggesting that it's not logical to expect that people who worship God, would expect that they would not be affected with sickness, death, inprisonment, etc., because they had "some genie in a bottle". :)

In other words, whatever the situation, just call on God, and all problems gone.
benchwarmer wrote:As a side note, you're continued use of 'lol' is verging on insulting. Perhaps you can just stick to finding flaws in arguments and let your logic stand on it's own without the constant laughing at what others are presenting. Trust me, some of us are having a real hard time remaining civil.
I wonder...
If I constantly tell someone that they are ignorant, don't understand what they are saying, they post nonsense / garbage / junk, and they are lying - How is that being civil? How is that letting logic stand out without attacking the poster's intellect?

How is laughing an an article or quote of someone I post, and find it funny, an insult to anyone, or anywhere near to the above?
Do you want to explain that?

Maybe it will help me understand what's wrong with my thinking.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Re: Probability of a Creator

Post #185

Post by Bust Nak »

[Replying to post 174 by theStudent]

Well you said you trust the Bible therefore, life on Earth obviously would share the same biological molecules; furthermore, the genetic blueprint responsible for life to get started did not, and cannot create itself; by extension, the evidence demonstrate that life did not evolve from a common ancestor.

How exactly was I supposed to parsed that, if not "scientific evidence demonstrate that life did not evolve from a common ancestor, because you trust the Bible." I re-read your post over a few times and it still says to me "the Bible is true therefore the evidence says life did not evolve."

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RonE
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Re: Probability of a Creator

Post #186

Post by RonE »

[Replying to post 181 by Monta]
Monta wrote: [Replying to post 173 by RonE]
RONE wrote: IMHO it is interesting that you cut & pasted all that I assume in an attempt to say that science cannot speak to the supernatural. And, that might be the case of your god except that Christians claim that theirs is a "personal" god. In as much as their god is expected to interface with humans. And, in doing so or failing to do so he reveals himself to observation. We are able to use scientific methods to study your god, or measure how he stacks up to your claims. Has he been shown to answer prayers? - NO. Has belief in this god made his followers more moral than others? - NO. etc...
You can not evaluate the uncreate from the created.
One has Life in Itself, the other has life FROM this Life.
He is Infinite and Eternal; can you to measure that?

God is Love, so how are you to scientificaly measure LOVE?
Yes some inclination from those who have embraced it, but they are only recepients who vary as much as they are infinite in number.
Being finite, they can not partake of Divine Love Itself as it would destroy them same as one can not walk into the sun. Same reason Jesus the Christ
descended as Truth, the Word, and not as Love.

Yes, He answers prayers and He has made me moral. My friend tried to commit suicide three times but after she became Christian she is happy.
You can multiply this by millions.
Let's try again, you seem to be ignoring or not understanding the key part of this:
RONE wrote: Christians claim that theirs is a "personal" god. In as much as their god is expected to interface with humans. And, in doing so or failing to do so he reveals himself to observation. We are able to use scientific methods to study your god, or measure how he stacks up to your claims.
Take your personal testimonial, which is worthless as evidence, and change that into some kind of metrics of a study/survey that shows statistically why your god can be shown to answer prayers. But, then you have to make that link back to why it proves your god exists. As long as that is done with proper scientific controls and methods you might be on to something. Dont' forget to include a hypothesis first.

It's great that you think that your belief in god made you moral. But, again, you've not shown any evidence of why your belief that god made you moral proves your god exists.

In the specific case of your friend, people can convince themselves of most anything, you believe god made you more moral, and they can become quite euphoric about their belief. That doesn't mean what they believe is true, except in their own minds.
*"On the other hand, we have people who are believers who are so completely sold on the literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible that they are rejecting very compelling scientific data about the age of the earth and the relatedness of living beings." Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D.
*The Atheist has the comfort of no fears for an afterlife and lacks any compulsion to blow himself up.
* Science flies to you the moon.... religion flies you into buildings.
* Faith isn’t a virtue; it is the glorification of voluntary ignorance.

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Re: Probability of a Creator

Post #187

Post by man »

[Replying to post 1 by theStudent]

Your creator is the universe, you grew from it as naturally as a seed grows from soil.

The thing you call god and claiming to know it is an insult to the intelligence of all humanity.

You sicken me.
Last edited by man on Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RonE
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Post #188

Post by RonE »

[Replying to post 182 by theStudent]

I'm glad to see you might be starting to catch on to presenting credible evidence for your god. Remember my topic "Proof of the christian god"? This is where I intended to take you in that topic, but you seem to have been afraid of it because you never engaged.

The tidbits I tosed out about prayer & morality are just my way to trying to show you how to form your hypothesis and proofs. You should be aware that it is expected in the scientific world that your peers will rip into what you present sometimes in ways that will seem like personal attacks. People who offer up their discoveries in the scientific world to peer review need to have very thick skins.

So please consider the rest of this to be me critiquing what you have presented to help you refine your presentations in the future.
theStudent wrote: Okay.
Let's analyze the data.

On the matter of prayer, if a scientific study is done, that study must first of all determine what prayers are answered,
Well, no, that is what a study could be used for
and if they can be answered.
that would be what the study results would show, or not show.
Has scientists determined that prayers can be answered?
See above. This could be formed into a hypothesis that a study could try to prove.
Does scientists know what prayers are, and what prayers are acceptable?
That issue will certainly come up in a debate
Why?
Various religious faiths
  • have various gods.
  • have different views.
  • are not all acceptable by the God of the Bible, and therefore, are not all heard by that God.
All very valid concerns that might be related to a particular hypothesis & study.

You go on listing a bunch of stuff that are all valid concerns and you should bear in mind as you develop your arguments.

The links you presented related to JW organizations work would not be evidence of anything other than the good work they are trying to do.
However, if persons who know what the Bible says about prayer, and worship of the true God, did do a report, it can be considered accurate, because they have an accurate "measuring rod".
Not good evidence of anything without proof.
Since this one doesn't deal with prayer or scietific research on prayer
Actually the Templeton study was done with good controls & scientific methods. You might not agree with their hypothesis, methods, or results but it is a credible study.
I think you get the point.
You have offered me zip.
Actually, hopefully you are starting to get the point, which was to demonstrate to you what it takes to present evidence in a credible manner.

What I've offered you is the chance to have more meaningful debates by modifying your debating tactics. This approach takes a lot of time & effort to plan your hypothesis and form your arguments otherwise you will get discredited by the peer review.

Don't loose sight of the ultimate debate: Does your god exist?
O:)
*"On the other hand, we have people who are believers who are so completely sold on the literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible that they are rejecting very compelling scientific data about the age of the earth and the relatedness of living beings." Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D.
*The Atheist has the comfort of no fears for an afterlife and lacks any compulsion to blow himself up.
* Science flies to you the moon.... religion flies you into buildings.
* Faith isn’t a virtue; it is the glorification of voluntary ignorance.

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Post #189

Post by Elijah John »

man wrote:
You sicken me.
:warning: Moderator Warning


Completely unacceptable. One of the clearest examples of a personal attack I have encountered.

Let this be an example to others.


Please review our Rules.

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Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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theStudent
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Re: Probability of a Creator

Post #190

Post by theStudent »

Bust Nak wrote: [Replying to post 174 by theStudent]

Well you said you trust the Bible therefore, life on Earth obviously would share the same biological molecules; furthermore, the genetic blueprint responsible for life to get started did not, and cannot create itself; by extension, the evidence demonstrate that life did not evolve from a common ancestor.

How exactly was I supposed to parsed that, if not "scientific evidence demonstrate that life did not evolve from a common ancestor, because you trust the Bible." I re-read your post over a few times and it still says to me "the Bible is true therefore the evidence says life did not evolve."
No. That is what I would consider close minded - not open to logic and reason, or truth.

This is what I said.
theStudent wrote:I said it before, I'll say it again.
I trust the Bible, which time and again the facts prove it is truthful.
It says, God - an intelligent source of power and energy - is the source of all living things. Therefore, they all obviously would share the same biological molecules.
Furthermore, the genetic blueprint responsible for life to get started did not, and cannot create itself. Clear evidence that the Bible presents the logical, and reasonable conclusion, for the origin of all variety of life on earth.
There is no guesswork in that.

By extension, the evidence to the present, continue to demonstrate that life did not evolve from a common ancestor.
If time is needed for me to see that happen, then maybe the next billion years (if I am still alive), I will see if I need to reexamine the evidence.
Until then...
Please explain how you got what you did from this.
I want to see where I am lacking in my explanations.

Also. Would you mind answering the following question:
Do you have any evidence that you can show me that verifies conclusively, that all life came from a common ancestor (Archaea)?
If yes, could you show me.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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