Man is totally unnable to choose spiritual life

[Browner]

-- born with an inherited sin nature … many verses
-- spiritually dead in his sins … Ephesians 2:1-5, Colossians 2:13
-- a captive to the law of sin and death … Romans 8:2
-- a slave to sin, forced to obey evil … John 8:34, Romans 6:17-21, Titus 3:3
-- an enemy of God, hostile to God, opposed to God … Romans 8:7
-- spiritually blind and deaf … Matthew 13:13-15, John 9:39, John 12:39-40, Eph 4:18
-- unable to understand the things of God (they are foolishness) … 1 Corinthians 2:14
-- seeing the gospel as utter foolishness … 1 Corinthians 1:18
-- unable to believe the truth of the gospel because it is veiled … 2 Corinthians 4:3
-- blinded by Satan … Acts 26:18, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4
-- controlled/ruled by Satan John 12:31, 1 John 5:19, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor 10:4-5, Eph 2:2
-- deceived by Satan … Revelation 12:9, John 8:44, 2 Corinthians 11:14
-- a captive of Satan unto death … Hebrews 2:14-15, Luke 4:18
-- unable to be righteous by doing good works … Isaiah 64:6, Galatians 2:16, Titus 3:5
-- unable to be saved by his own desire or works … Romans 9:16, Ephesians 2:8-9
-- able to be saved only by the grace and mercy of God … Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-7
-- NOT allowed to choose ... God chooses only whomever He pleases … Romans 9:9-24

[ttruscott]

[quote="[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.

I can see how this appears to exonerate the Creator from the charge that he created evil, but a being with no sense of evil certainly didn't institute it.

???

To have mens rea, at least in tellurian justice systems, one must have the intention of doing wrong. If people had no apparatus for deciding the immorality of an act, then they did not institute evil. If the choice they made was then designated the wrong one or the evil one by God, it is his responsibility.

Mens rea is acceptable, tellurian or supra-tellurian, but is that all no sense of evil in a being with no sense of evil certainly didn't institute it refers to?

It is endemic to my theology that when anyone chose for or against GOD they knew they were making an eternal moral decision from (within) YHWH's pov. Some acquiesced to HIS morals, others repudiated them as the lies of a false god, knowingly choosing hell if HE ever proved HIMself to be our creator GOD, over spending eternity with HIM as HIS heavenly bride.

Their intent was to renounce HIM totally and reject HIS moral stance of being the sole arbiter of right and wrong completely.

[marco]

It is endemic to my theology that when anyone chose for or against GOD they knew they were making an eternal moral decision from (within) YHWH's pov. Some acquiesced to HIS morals, others repudiated them as the lies of a false god, knowingly choosing hell if HE ever proved HIMself to be our creator GOD, over spending eternity with HIM as HIS heavenly bride.

Their intent was to renounce HIM totally and reject HIS moral stance of being the sole arbiter of right and wrong completely.

And so, not having any evil intent, they cannot be held responsible nor punished. The choice for them would be like one of picking green or yellow. Morality isn't involved.

But in any case this imaginative scenario that took place before the creation of the Earth, in a zone we cannot comprehend, is speculative to the nth degree.

One can imagine a scenario similar to Plato's cave, where reality is an illusion.

Or we can see ourselves as puppets in a computer game, put in motion by a boy. Would we know? Descartes supposed that his ability to think demonstrated reality - but we think well enough in the fantasy of dreams.

It is not possible either to prove your theory - or theology - or disprove it. Like any religion it rests upon the individual's faith.