Just for the record this post is written for decent people to read. If you actually are a thief, then this post isn't going to make much sense to you.
Let's say that someone comes up to you and says the following:
"You are a thief! All you do is think about how you can get over on other people. All you do is look for opportunities to take what doesn't belong to you. You don't care about anyone but yourself. And you need to change your evil ways."
What would be your first reaction?
Well assuming that you are a decent person and you know these accusations are false, your first reaction would most likely be to ask this accuser, "Where in the world did you even get such a horrible idea about me?"
You know that the accusation is false right? So it's clear to you that all that really needs to be done here is to convince this accuser that these accusations are false. And even if you can't succeed in convincing the accuser that the accusations are false, you still know that they are indeed false accusations.
So, now if these accusations were made by some author of 2000-year-old religious texts what would change?
Would you suddenly think, "Gee, I must be a thief who is out to get over on everyone, and I don't care about anyone but myself"?
Surely not?
Questions for Debate:
Why should any decent person believe in an ancient religion that makes accusations toward them that they know to be false anymore than they should believe some stranger who just now came up to them making all manner of false accusations about them today?
You're a Thief!
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You're a Thief!
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Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
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Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
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Re: You're a Thief!
Post #41We should probably come up with an official name for this behavior.Divine Insight wrote:Why is it that when it works in favor of Christian theology a literal interpretation of scriptures is pointed to. But the moment a literal interpretation of the scriptures works against Christian theology a claim is made that the Bible shouldn't be taken literally and a non-literal excuse is given instead.MadeNew wrote: That word they took "debate" from is the greek word "eridos", which is literally translated as "strife"
Strife:angry or bitter disagreement over fundamental issues; conflict.
FYI
Looks like a game of musical chairs to me.
Maybe the 'Apologist two step', 'Scripture Salsa', 'Fundamentalist Fandango', ... I dunno. There must be something catchy that describes what's going on.
I've got 10 shiny tokens (ok, mostly shiny, they may have pasta sauce on them) to the best name
What?! I like pasta ok? I like to play with my tokens while I eat. I can't figure out what else to do with them.
Re: You're a Thief!
Post #42Willum wrote: [Replying to MadeNew]
Hi, Madenew - I am sorry, I am not influenced by evil. There is not such thing as evil influence in my world. Actually, I just call evil, "stupidity," and whenever I do something stupid, I just make it up to those people it has harmed.
You believe that there is something god-made called evil, and some character personification of it: I find these concepts personally puerile, like those of the child scared of the monster under the bed, or teenagers who hear a bump in the night after telling scary stories.
Now, would you stop making this personal? It is a fine line on this forum.
But, as to the rest of Jude-Christianity's 'evil:'
Err, Christians and Jews exterminated 54 million indigenous people in the name of the US Manifest Destiny.
Hitler and the Nazi party, as we have discovered killed 11 million people, most of them we not Jews, indeed, it was the Nazis who defined Jewish as anyone with a Jewish grandparent: of those 4 million "Jews," most of them were only Jewish sympathizers. The government was German Protestant, as was he. He is firmly in the Judeo-Christian camp, don't look at me. Just Christians killing Jews, exactly like what was done in the Crusades.
You obviously haven't heard of the Inquisition, but it is not for me to educate you. How much bloodshed and death did Charlemagne bring to Europe in the name of God?
Do you know how many cultures and peoples have been exterminated in the name of Judeo-Christianity? I am guessing the question vexes historians who've studied it.
But I'll hold with my precept: Good generates good, vaccines, peace, and knowledge.
Bad, generates hatred, genocide and ill.
We can see which side Judeo-Christianity is on. It sequestered science and weal, so that people could believe the Sun went round the Earth. There are still sects that teach medicine is bad, a reach-back to Middle Age Christianity. It still promotes the hatred of Jew and Muslims.
I am sorry, going on is making me ill.
Can you show me where Jesus Christ supported these things you are talking about?
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Re: You're a Thief!
Post #43[Replying to post 37 by MadeNew]
I'd like you to answer my point about your fear being irrational. You brought up the example of Ted Bundy saying that his pornography habits were a [major] factor in his crimes (ignoring entirely that he said quite the opposite at other occasions), but you ignore the fact that despite pornography being consumed in large amounts in the world, the world is not full of necrophiliacs like Ted Bundy.
I can still sorta empathise with the way you think here though. I myself do not drink alcohol. Beyond the fact I don't like the smell or taste, I think it immoral to drink something that alters (in a negative way) one's ability to reason.
At first, my reason for not drinking alcohol was so as to not be like my late uncle, an alcoholic, or my father. However, eventually I realised that those fears were irrational. Now the reason I don't drink alcohol is simply because I don't like the stuff (and it compromises one's ability to think...although the one time in my life where I consumed a few drinks, I didn't even feel buzzed... )
"For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature."
Second, before, you didn't say "this is LIKE the basics of a psychopath", you said quote
If even someone praised as much as she is (ignoring for now criticisms from Hitchens et al) can be convicted of sin, then your belief system is just...well...hateful. It apparently hates everybody.
If this 'Faith of Christ' is a cure for this 'sin' illness, then it's a completely ineffectual cure. The FDA recently banned antibacterial handwashes because they are ineffectual at their stated goal.
I would care if the things you say are immoral showed actual harms. So if a man watches pornography and masturbates, where's the harm?
I don't care precisely because there is nothing to care about!
Is this because you realize deep down, your reasons for declaring it to be immoral don't hold merit?
It's your absolutist "my way or the highway" mentality that I find most immoral about yourself.
Sorry...but the thought of you asking an all powerful entity to violate my free will to do what I want with my body...I find that grossly immoral.
Oh wait. Sorry. Forgot. There's nothing to debate about.
Funny. My own previous attempts (more than one) to stop watching pornography, I would not have described as being 'the most freeing way to live'.Yes i believe pornography is sinful, i use to be addicted to the stuff and it completely corrupted my thoughts. Thank God! I am being made new! in the last year i have barely seen any pornography. It is the most freeing way to live.
I'd like you to answer my point about your fear being irrational. You brought up the example of Ted Bundy saying that his pornography habits were a [major] factor in his crimes (ignoring entirely that he said quite the opposite at other occasions), but you ignore the fact that despite pornography being consumed in large amounts in the world, the world is not full of necrophiliacs like Ted Bundy.
I can still sorta empathise with the way you think here though. I myself do not drink alcohol. Beyond the fact I don't like the smell or taste, I think it immoral to drink something that alters (in a negative way) one's ability to reason.
At first, my reason for not drinking alcohol was so as to not be like my late uncle, an alcoholic, or my father. However, eventually I realised that those fears were irrational. Now the reason I don't drink alcohol is simply because I don't like the stuff (and it compromises one's ability to think...although the one time in my life where I consumed a few drinks, I didn't even feel buzzed... )
First, Paul denies that it his himself that is doing anything wrong, but 'sin' as if sin is a thinking entity that possesses him.Go read the end of Romans 7, Paul struggles with sin, everyone does. Well not everyone, some people deny their sin exists and some only live to do whatever their own corrupt heart desires... This is like a psychopath, they deny anyone else existence, they feel no remorse, and they seek to only fulfill what they personally desire to fulfill. That is like the basics of a psychopath, it is like denying sin even exists.
"For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature."
Second, before, you didn't say "this is LIKE the basics of a psychopath", you said quote
You didn't use language indicating a similarity, you said people who don't believe in sin (i.e. myself and others on this website) are psychopaths! You also told a lie, saying this is the 'definition of a psychopath'. I gave rebuttals from six different dictionaries, only for you to completely ignore it.then there are the people who don't even believe in sin. Not believing in sin is the very root of the definition of a psychopath.
I take it you never studied marketing? I did. "Hey join my religion! You'll be convicted of sin...whether you join or not!"I am convinced you can not be a Christian and not be convicted of sin.
The same Mother Teresa who was just recently canonized as a saint by the Roman Catholic Church, the one venerated worldwide for her work with the poor?I mean i bet even Mother Teresa was convicted of sin.
If even someone praised as much as she is (ignoring for now criticisms from Hitchens et al) can be convicted of sin, then your belief system is just...well...hateful. It apparently hates everybody.
Then this Faith of Christ fails completely, as you indicate that yourself, your family, and everyone, Christians and non-Christian alike, are sinners, still are sinners.The Faith of Christ is meant to bring people out of their sin, into faith, and close to God.
If this 'Faith of Christ' is a cure for this 'sin' illness, then it's a completely ineffectual cure. The FDA recently banned antibacterial handwashes because they are ineffectual at their stated goal.
Who says I don't care? Are you implying that my saying yes to (some of) your questions up above means I don't care?I am convinced you can not live faithfully while living sinfully, this leads people to repentance. Faith is the righteousness of God. What is scary is to fall into a place where you don't even care.
I would care if the things you say are immoral showed actual harms. So if a man watches pornography and masturbates, where's the harm?
I don't care precisely because there is nothing to care about!
Is this how you convince people that what you say is immoral, actually is immoral? You simply declare it to be, and when they disagree and give their reasons and opinions, you say "I have nothing more to debate about"? You give up?Listen man, if you are actually going to compromise yourself to where you actually justify the morality of prostitutes, and pornography, and scat porn, and perversion, i have nothing more to debate about.
Is this because you realize deep down, your reasons for declaring it to be immoral don't hold merit?
It's your absolutist "my way or the highway" mentality that I find most immoral about yourself.
Scat porn is, I agree about that, but the rest in my view isn't. Are you going to try and give me reasons as to why I should view them as disgusting, or are you going to continue with your 'nothing to debate about' stance?That stuff is disgusting,
I disagree. Simply declaring something immoral isn't the same thing as convincing me it is.it is immoral
Nope, not in my eyes.it is perverted,
Why? Are you actually going to ask God to intervene, to interfere with my free will? Remember your arguments about free will earlier?At this point i should just pray for you,
Sorry...but the thought of you asking an all powerful entity to violate my free will to do what I want with my body...I find that grossly immoral.
Oh wait. Sorry. Forgot. There's nothing to debate about.
How soon one forgets the point I raised earlier.because that stuff is objectively immoral,
To put it simply, I do not accept your claim that it is "objectively immoral".What you're going to say next, what you say constitutes pure sex, and what constitutes impure sex, is your completely subjective opinion, and the completely subjective opinion of your religion, just with a god label stamped on to it to try and give it the authority to meddle in people's lives.
Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"
I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead
Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense
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Re: You're a Thief!
Post #44[Replying to post 40 by Willum]
Like calling people psychopaths for not believing in sin.Bad, generates hatred,
Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"
I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead
Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense
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Re: You're a Thief!
Post #45[Replying to MadeNew]
Can I show you history?
Sure, look at history.
Worshipers of Judeo-Christianity, do these things.
Oh, you are going to tell me this is not what the Bible teaches!
To which I reply, it gets in somehow.
Somehow followers of the Abrahamic-god have murdered entire nations in the name of God. Somehow they are still doing it today, somehow God approves.
I can read the Bible as well as anyone: But I can't understand why those teachings, or belief that Christians, Jews, Palestinians, Native Americans, Poles, Letts, and countless others are OK for Jews and Christians to exterminate and cross-exterminate.
All I can do is observe it is true.
Perhaps you can tell me?
Can I show you history?
Sure, look at history.
Worshipers of Judeo-Christianity, do these things.
Oh, you are going to tell me this is not what the Bible teaches!
To which I reply, it gets in somehow.
Somehow followers of the Abrahamic-god have murdered entire nations in the name of God. Somehow they are still doing it today, somehow God approves.
I can read the Bible as well as anyone: But I can't understand why those teachings, or belief that Christians, Jews, Palestinians, Native Americans, Poles, Letts, and countless others are OK for Jews and Christians to exterminate and cross-exterminate.
All I can do is observe it is true.
Perhaps you can tell me?
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Post #46
Moderator WarningMadeNew wrote: [Replying to post 14 by Divine Insight]
First of all, you hate God, thats pretty clear, and thats something in that list. I don't buy that you are sinless DI, not for a second. ...You want me to take your word for it? lol... Maybe in your eyes, which is the problem,....
Not believing in sin is the very root of the definition of a psychopath.
This is a debating site, not a preaching site. Needlessly personal comments. If you think another member has been inflammatory or ranting (the opposite of preaching, in some ways) feel free to report them, but don't get personal on the boards.
Please review our Rules.
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Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
Post #47
Fine, my debates are not valid in this forum. good bye, just a waste of time and a headache to be picked on by moderators when people aren't even cvotributing anything to the debate like post 41, and i get called out for debating that you want to call preaching. this is distrusting.
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Re: You're a Thief!
Post #48You are the one who just gave an argument that the term "debate" should be literally taken to mean "strife".MadeNew wrote:Divine Insight wrote:Why is it that when it works in favor of Christian theology a literal interpretation of scriptures is pointed to. But the moment a literal interpretation of the scriptures works against Christian theology a claim is made that the Bible shouldn't be taken literally and a non-literal excuse is given instead.MadeNew wrote: That word they took "debate" from is the greek word "eridos", which is literally translated as "strife"
Strife:angry or bitter disagreement over fundamental issues; conflict.
FYI
Looks like a game of musical chairs to me.
DI i suggest you go study the philosophy of "hermeneutics"
No one thinks that the entire scripture should be taken literally except nonbelievers who attempt to criticize it on those grounds.
"I am the LIGHT"~Jesus Christ...
How do you propose to interpret the word in question? "eridos" or "strife" of "debate"?
So not only are your arguing for a literal interpretation, but you are also suggesting that the original transcribers of the Bible were poor translators.
[center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]