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liamconnor
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 6:06 pm  Resurrection ONE theory Reply with quote

Yes, yes, I have done this before; but the diversity of skepticism is pretty huge here (after all, we have skeptics dueling with skeptics over the mere "existence" of "a" Jesus!).

So, once again, I offer a list of what numerous scholars, representing a wide range of theological convictions, would agree upon as bedrock.

Previously I made individual points topics of its own thread, but that seemed to be annoying.

So, I offer what I believe to be the whole list.

Once more, it will be noticed I do not beg the question of the miraculous; so please read the "subjective qualifications" (say of #12, "BELIEVED") carefully; i.e. when I start out with "A" Jesus, obviously the quotations signify that I am not begging the question of the "Gospel/Christian tradition" Jesus.

So, here is the list: this OP is for those who have no qualms with this list. The question is, how can we explain the origins of Christianity, accounting for this list.

1. “A” Yeshua of Nazareth existed who:
2. Was baptized by John the Baptist
3. Was regarded by his contemporaries as a miraculous healer and exorcist
4. Attracted numerous disciples (no less than 500).
5. Selected from a mass of followers 12, who would especially represent him
6. Shied away from being called “Christ” and used the self-referential “Son of Man”
7. Caused a scene in the temple
8. Was brought to trial by the Jewish authorities and condemned on grounds of blasphemy
9. Was condemned by Pontius Pilate, and assigned to death by crucifixion.
10. His corpse was buried in a tomb provided by Joseph of Arimathea, a Jewish aristocrat, shortly before Sabbath (Friday evening, about 6 p.m.)
11. On Sunday morning women disciples visited the tomb to perform the customary burial preparations. Upon arrival, they discovered the tomb empty.
12. Some male disciples arrived at the tomb and discovered it empty.
13 Shortly after this discovery, a group of Jesus’ male disciples (about 500) believed they had encountered and fellowshipped with, collectively and privately, their risen master.
14. Driven by this belief, they proclaimed their dead Master alive, and exalted to heaven as God’s Son. They proclaimed that this incident fulfilled all their ancient hopes as a nation.
15. A Pharisee named Saul/Paul persecuted this movement in its earliest stages.
16. This Pharisee, on his way to Damascus, had an experience in which he believed the leader of the movement he was persecuting appeared to him, which resulted in his conversion
17. Saul/Paul visited Peter and James within three to six years after the crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth



One theory is that Jesus was actually raised, actually appeared to his disciples, and actually revealed himself to Paul.


What are other theories?

(PS I have updated the list in light of responses. NOT because they raised NEW questions, but because it was apparent that certain obvious repercussions were already implied: for instance, I thought it obvious that, in the above list, the male disciples BELIEVED the tomb was miraculously vacated, since they BELIEVED they had encountered the risen Jesus and fellowshipped with him. But one post suggested the male disciples stole the body. So (bewildered) I had to specify something I thought obvious).
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 11: Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:23 pm
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It seems likely that a wandering preacher, by a different name, was the basis for Jesus stories. Those stories, written decades or generations later, tell of him preaching for a few years then being executed.

The stories, which cannot be verified as truthful and accurate, also tell of burial in a tomb which was supposedly found to be empty. There are no accounts of anyone witnessing the claimed “resurrection”; however, assumptions were made that the empty tomb meant that the deceased came back to life and left (a seemingly irrational assumption). The stories also indicate that some time later people claimed to have seen the deceased alive (a not uncommon claim by bereaved people).

Thus, debate about “what happened to the body” is speculation concerning characters in a story – based upon NO independent / disconnected information about the characters from sources outside the storytellers.

Adding to the incredibility of those storytellers, they also claim that scores of other long-dead bodies came back to life at the same time or shortly after AND that the deceased later rose up into the sky and disappeared.

My thought about the stories is that they may have been just a WEE bit exaggerated through repeated retelling by religiously motivated people.

I am NOT willing to assume that tales of an empty tomb, sightings of the deceased, claims by devotees are truthful and accurate. Unless those assumptions are made, the discussion is a hypothetical consideration of hypothetical characters and hypothetical situations.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 12: Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:47 pm
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From the OP:

Quote:

Resurrection ONE theory
What are the others?

Folks're goofy.

(Where by "folks" it's meant - "Some folks it is, well they have 'em some danged goofy notions, but they's good folks and we didn't come here to spit on 'em, just their danged goofy notions")

We also note the use of the term 'theory', and how it is, hypothesaurus rex ain't gone extinct.

(edit for I can't tell if a dropped quotater is worser'ner a danglin' modifier. Dang modifiers.)

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 13: Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:33 am
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Re: Resurrection ONE theory

Like this post (1): Talishi
Talishi wrote:

Divine Insight wrote:

Well, that would blow the Christian Gospels clean out of the water then. The Christian Gospels claim that Pontius Pilate exonerated Jesus of all charges and found no fault with him, and even publicly washed his hands of the whole affair.


That's the revisionist history after Jerusalem fell and Christians were primarily marketing to Romans for converts. In reality, Pilate was...not a nice man. Nice men didn't get to be governors of unruly provinces on the Roman marches. Pilate would crucify at the drop of a hat. Any hat.


I agree. As do most historians. The very idea that Pontius Pilate would have exonerated Jesus after the Jewish Priests brought Jesus to him on charges of claiming to be the King of the Jews.

It doesn't make any sense that Pilate would have exonerated him. As you say he would have had the Jew crucified at a drop of a hat. Why argue with the Jews if they want to have a Jew crucified? Supposedly Pilate hated the Jews. He would have had Jesus crucified in a split second and asked the Chief Priest if they have any more Jews they'd like for Pilate to crucify.

The very idea that Pilate would have argued for the innocence of Jesus makes no sense at all. Yet that's what the Gospel rumors claim Pilate did.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 14: Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:46 am
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Re: Resurrection ONE theory

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liamconnor wrote:

Yes, yes, I have done this before; but the diversity of skepticism is pretty huge here (after all, we have skeptics dueling with skeptics over the mere "existence" of "a" Jesus!).

So, once again, I offer a list of what numerous scholars, representing a wide range of theological convictions, would agree upon as bedrock.

Previously I made individual points topics of its own thread, but that seemed to be annoying.

So, I offer what I believe to be the whole list.

Once more, it will be noticed I do not beg the question of the miraculous; so please read the "subjective qualifications" (say of #12, "BELIEVED") carefully; i.e. when I start out with "A" Jesus, obviously the quotations signify that I am not begging the question of the "Gospel/Christian tradition" Jesus.

So, here is the list: this OP is for those who have no qualms with this list. The question is, how can we explain the origins of Christianity, accounting for this list.

1. “A” Yeshua of Nazareth existed who:
2. Was baptized by John the Baptist
3. Was regarded by his contemporaries as a miraculous healer and exorcist
4. Attracted numerous disciples (no less than 500).
5. Selected from a mass of followers 12, who would especially represent him
6. Shied away from being called “Christ” and used the self-referential “Son of Man”
7. Caused a scene in the temple
8. Was brought to trial by the Jewish authorities and condemned on grounds of blasphemy
9. Was condemned by Pontius Pilate, and assigned to death by crucifixion.
10. His corpse was buried in a tomb provided by Joseph of Arimathea, a Jewish aristocrat, shortly before Sabbath (Friday evening, about 6 p.m.)
11. On Sunday morning women disciples visited the tomb to perform the customary burial preparations. Upon arrival, they discovered the tomb empty.
12. Some male disciples arrived at the tomb and discovered it empty.
13 Shortly after this discovery, a group of Jesus’ male disciples (about 500) believed they had encountered and fellowshipped with, collectively and privately, their risen master.
14. Driven by this belief, they proclaimed their dead Master alive, and exalted to heaven as God’s Son. They proclaimed that this incident fulfilled all their ancient hopes as a nation.
15. A Pharisee named Saul/Paul persecuted this movement in its earliest stages.
16. This Pharisee, on his way to Damascus, had an experience in which he believed the leader of the movement he was persecuting appeared to him, which resulted in his conversion
17. Saul/Paul visited Peter and James within three to six years after the crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth



One theory is that Jesus was actually raised, actually appeared to his disciples, and actually revealed himself to Paul.


What are other theories?

(PS I have updated the list in light of responses. NOT because they raised NEW questions, but because it was apparent that certain obvious repercussions were already implied: for instance, I thought it obvious that, in the above list, the male disciples BELIEVED the tomb was miraculously vacated, since they BELIEVED they had encountered the risen Jesus and fellowshipped with him. But one post suggested the male disciples stole the body. So (bewildered) I had to specify something I thought obvious).


RESPONSE: How do you prove that this is "bedrock"?

"I thought it obvious that...."?????

What you think is your own business. What is true has to be proven.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 15: Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:24 am
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You just don't like the default that he did not exist at all?

There is no literature recorded about him in his own time.
If anything or anyone else did not have a presence in history, they would be discounted.
If you consider how Jesus was used: The oppression Jerusalem, and then the Empire, there is a very easy explanation.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 16: Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:07 pm
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Re: Resurrection ONE theory

Like this post (1): JoeyKnothead
[Replying to post 1 by liamconnor]

Quote:
Shortly after this discovery, a group of Jesus’ male disciples (about 500) believed they had encountered and fellowshipped with, collectively and privately, their risen master.


It appears that liamconnor believes that 'bedrock' has a different meaning than I do.

I do not consider the above to be 'bedrock'. That claim about Jesus appearing to 500 people is mentioned precisely ONCE in ancient documents, by Paul.
Once.
We have no other documents, from any other people, that that actually happened, or was believed by others to have happened to still yet other people. For all we know, Paul made that up.

So liamconnor, what exactly do you mean by 'bedrock', and what are your criteria for it, before you consider a claim to be 'bedrock'? I wouldn't consider the 500 people claim to be 'bedrock' because it is not substantiated at all (either as an actual event or just a belief that it happened).

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 17: Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:14 pm
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Re: Resurrection ONE theory

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[Replying to post 10 by Divine Insight]

Quote:
So it would be the Jewish Priests who had this done not Pilate.

So if any historians have Pilate condemning and crucifying Jesus as an enemy of Rome, then this contradicts the Christian Gospels.

In fact, this is a strong argument that the Jews give against the Christian Gospels. The idea that Jewish Priests would have called for a Roman Style crucifixion of anyone doesn't historically fit in with what the Jews believed.


This too doesn't make any sense to me. I hear from others that Pilate was a hard man, who was too free with loosing his soldiers on those who protested against him, and that he was considered so bad at this that he was recalled by Rome.
That, and the thought that a Roman governor (or whatever title Pilate had) would let a group of non-Romans execute someone. That would have been showing weakness to the indigenous population, showing to the Jews that the Romans can be pushed around, which wouldn't exactly be welcome news to Caesar's ears.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 18: Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:06 pm
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Re: Resurrection ONE theory

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[Replying to post 18 by Kapyong]


Quote:
Moderator removed nine one-line, non-contributing posts, from nine different threads. They weren't even one-line posts. They were one line quotes without response. Kindly refrain from making posts that contribute nothing to debate and/or simply express agreement / disagreement or make other frivolous remarks.

For complementing or agreeing use the "Like" function or the MGP button. For anything else use PM.

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