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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:20 pm
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Did Jesus found / originate Christianity?

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Did Jesus found / originate Christianity?

From what is said in the New Testament, Jesus was a Jew who preached Judaism – and evidently did not intend to start a competing religion.

After he was dead, however, Paul/Saul and associates DID start a competing religion (later called Christianity) that departed significantly from Judaism. They preached to Gentiles hundreds of miles away from the country of Jesus (and from any who might have known of him).

Since Jesus is said to have based his theology on the Torah, why do modern Christians fail to follow his example – but instead follow the teachings / preachings of Paul/Saul and associates (with lip service to Jesus and Judaism)?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:41 pm
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Re: Did Jesus found / originate Christianity?

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[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

Tiberius Caesar founded Christianity:
Like other places in the world, he (Rome) examined the religious beliefs of Jerusalem; Usurped and integrated them into the Roman religion, that's why they worship Jové (Ee-o-veh) instead of Elohim.

The bit about the baby Jesus getting the things he loved most in the word is deplorable.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Tue Oct 11, 2016 5:26 pm
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Re: Did Jesus found / originate Christianity?

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Zzyzx wrote:

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Did Jesus found / originate Christianity?

From what is said in the New Testament, Jesus was a Jew who preached Judaism – and evidently did not intend to start a competing religion.

After he was dead, however, Paul/Saul and associates DID start a competing religion (later called Christianity) that departed significantly from Judaism. They preached to Gentiles hundreds of miles away from the country of Jesus (and from any who might have known of him).

Since Jesus is said to have based his theology on the Torah, why do modern Christians fail to follow his example – but instead follow the teachings / preachings of Paul/Saul and associates (with lip service to Jesus and Judaism)?



The sad thing is that we have been over this. I have shown you scripture that completely contradicts the things you question in which you had no response to, and here it starts all over again.... You do not wish to understand scripture, instead you remain at road blocks that you created for yourself which you apparently can't get past, and continue to act like this is a good way to debate. Asking the same questions over and over and ignoring the response. I think you should remove yourself from the "admits mistakes" group.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Wed Oct 12, 2016 4:05 am
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MadeNew wrote:

You do not wish to understand scripture, instead you remain at road blocks that you created for yourself which you apparently can't get past...

...I think you should remove yourself from the "admits mistakes" group.


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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:43 am
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Re: Did Jesus found / originate Christianity?

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Zzyzx wrote:

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Did Jesus found / originate Christianity?

From what is said in the New Testament, Jesus was a Jew who preached Judaism – and evidently did not intend to start a competing religion.

After he was dead, however, Paul/Saul and associates DID start a competing religion (later called Christianity) that departed significantly from Judaism. They preached to Gentiles hundreds of miles away from the country of Jesus (and from any who might have known of him).

Since Jesus is said to have based his theology on the Torah, why do modern Christians fail to follow his example – but instead follow the teachings / preachings of Paul/Saul and associates (with lip service to Jesus and Judaism)?


Jesus himself contributed to making the Torah more palitable by simplifying it, boiling it down to it's essence (the Golden rule, which he called the "Law and the Prophets") and expanding it's reach, the understanding of the Father's love and mercy to include outcasts.

Jesus sought to reform Judaism, not to start another religion. That line about him choosing Peter as his "rock" upon which to build his "Church" does not seem authentic to me, and smacks of revisionism.

Quite simply, Paul and others took the religion of Jesus (Jesus version of Judaism) and made it a religion about Jesus. Whatever Paul may have intended, he effectively made Jesus into the object of worship and veneration, supplanting even the Father himself.

Where Isaiah has God saying that "every knee will bow to YHVH", Paul and cohorts said that "every knee will bow to Jesus".

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Wed Oct 12, 2016 6:03 am
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Re: Did Jesus found / originate Christianity?

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[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

John the Baptist taught that God was about to intervene directly in human history, and his baptism was to prepare people to be part of that immanent kingdom, which would remain distinctly Jewish in character. When John was executed, Jesus, a disciple, stepped up to a leadership role and inherited most of John's disciples. When Jesus in turn was executed James took over the mantle, but his leadership was so weak, and he was so cozy with the Jews who opposed Jesus, that the movement split into several branches, with Peter at Antioch, John in Ephesus, and a number of independent gnostic branches. Paul was a complete outsider with a case of me-tooism. Events conspired to make Paul's branch ascendant, and then the revisionist historians (ie. gospel writers) weighed in.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Wed Oct 12, 2016 6:06 am
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Re: Did Jesus found / originate Christianity?

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Zzyzx wrote:
From what is said in the New Testament, Jesus was a Jew who preached Judaism – and evidently did not intend to start a competing religion.
    1) He violated the law, the backbone of Judaism, on several occasions and made no excuses for it.
    2) He claimed to be the Messiah – which according to Judaism today was supposed to be a geo-political ruler who restored the nation of Israel.
    3) He allegedly spoke to Satan – a belief which Judaism says isn’t a part of Jewish believe (i.e. Satan being a person who temps us.)
    4) He spoke of an afterlife of bliss or suffering – also a belief absent in Judaism.
    5) He associated w/ritually unclean people on a regular basis.
    6) He suggested He fulfilled the Law when He died (i.e. “It is consummated/fulfilled”, which is actually what the Greek says.)
I could list several other things that Christ did that are incompatible with Judaism; therefore, I’m not sure that one can assert that Christ was teaching Judaism. At most one could teach that He was teaching something that wasn’t normative Judaism and this is why people stopped referring to His flowerers as Jews; instead, referring to them as Christians, which sounded like it was meant to be derogatory and/or dismissive.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:37 am
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Re: Did Jesus found / originate Christianity?

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[Replying to post 7 by JLB32168]

Okay, by that reasoning Jesus wasn't even a very good / faithful Jew (even if he was claimed to be or tried to be).

Where does that lead? A failed Jewish preacher who was venerated for his failures?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:04 am
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Re: Did Jesus found / originate Christianity?

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Zzyzx wrote:

.
Did Jesus found / originate Christianity?

From what is said in the New Testament, Jesus was a Jew who preached Judaism – and evidently did not intend to start a competing religion.

After he was dead, however, Paul/Saul and associates DID start a competing religion (later called Christianity) that departed significantly from Judaism. They preached to Gentiles hundreds of miles away from the country of Jesus (and from any who might have known of him).

Since Jesus is said to have based his theology on the Torah, why do modern Christians fail to follow his example – but instead follow the teachings / preachings of Paul/Saul and associates (with lip service to Jesus and Judaism)?


There are several problems when posing a question that engages in question begging. One component of this is that Jesus preached ‘Judaism’ and that Judaism is different from Christianity thus, Jesus is then assumed to be distinct from Christianity. These are assumptions which are not universally shared among interpreters for several reasons. One of the prominent reasons that this view is problematic in my opinion is that it is somewhat anachronistic. This is because in the period under question (i.e. the turn of the millennia) Judaism was much more diverse then it was after the rise of Rabbinic Judaism which occurs after the birth of nascent Christianity. So, if we assume a religious founder figure like a Historical Jesus is preaching Rabbinic Judaism we have a basic problem with chronology. As to the state of Judaism during this period I would recommend any of the relevant works of the recently departed Jacob Neusner.

The second charge is a common one that has to do with Paul’s alleged corruption/invention of Christianity. I have stated before that in order to substantiate such a view an interpretation of the following textual evidence is necessary: Paul mentions disagreements of with Jerusalem over issues. These issues have to do with circumcision and ritual purity (e.g. table fellowship). There do not exist objections from Jerusalem over Christological, soteriological, or eschatological Pauline teachings. So, the basic inference is that these groups were on the same page with regard to these questions.

Take care,
TFV

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:05 am
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Zzyzx wrote:
Okay, by that reasoning Jesus wasn't even a very good / faithful Jew (even if he was claimed to be or tried to be).
Well . . . that was an accusation levied against Him. “Blasphemy” isn’t generally a term applied to a pious believer in X-religion.

Zzyzx wrote:
Where does that lead? A failed Jewish preacher who was venerated for his failures?
A deliberate decision to do things differently isn’t generally regarded as a failure as the word is commonly defined; however, one can use innovative definitions.

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