Born this Way

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Wissing
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Born this Way

Post #1

Post by Wissing »

I was born this way.

No, not what you're thinking.... I'm white. I can't help it. When I was in 7th grade, I remember my teacher asking me "you can't see how slavery could affect people even today?"

I was offended. First of all, being a 7th grader, no I could not see how black slavery, several generations gone, could affect people today. Secondly, even if it did, I thought, there's nothing I can do about it! Just because I'm white doesn't mean I'm responsible for black slavery. Nor does it mean I'm responsible for any modern day problems that may have stemmed from it. There's no reason for affirmative action. Re-districting schools to import black kids from the inner city to white schools in the suburbs is an inefficient waste of time and money, and is racist. Why can't we just treat everybody the same, regardless of race?

That was the argument I used to convince myself of my innocence at that time. Part of it had been taught to me by my parents. Part of it was based on an innate sense of logic. And I think that many, many white Christians are using the same sort of reasoning even today. Not just with affirmative action, but with any attempt to intentionally move towards desegregation.

However, in recent years, I have found myself confronted by 2 big news issues: racism and gayness. And in all the time we orthodox white Christians have been holding onto our belief that homosexuality is a sin (which I do believe it is, by the way), we have neglected to incriminate ourselves for a sin that stems from the very same "flesh".

Let me explain. Homosexual lust (as with any sin) is a result of our fallen nature - Adam's sin, which we have inherited. Not the guilt for Adam's sins, but the very same tendency to sin, ourselves. We are guilty of sins we never asked to desire. We are tempted in ways we never chose to be tempted. Unless we are regenerated by rebirth in the name of Jesus, we have no capacity to overcome these things.

But in Christ, we are forgiven for our sins. Before we ever overcome them, we are forgiven. So, if we feel that we cannot choose to do the right thing, we are not stuck. We can freely admit fault, knowing that God forgives those who are faithful to Him. And yet, despite the glaringly obvious fault we have been committing for the last several centuries (racism), white Christians like myself have not repented, and not confessed, and go on committed our sin of omission with no qualms whatsoever.

We do benefit from years and years of free labor. African Americans built the US, and much of the Western World. Though I myself did not own slaves, I have certainly benefited from slavery. Today, we still live in an extremely segregated society, and not at all one that is "separate but equal". I have a very dear friend who is black, and works very very hard, more than I do, and yet is economically disadvantaged due to factors outside his control. If one can inherit poverty and addiction, another can certainly inherit a responsibility towards justice for past wrongs.

That's my opinion, and I'm not going to phrase this debate as a question, but instead I just want people to either agree or disagree with me, and state it here.


For further reading:
https://sojo.net/articles/remembering-t ... iginal-sin

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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Born this Way

Post #2

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 1 by Wissing]

I don't see what was offensive about the question unless perhaps the teacher was trying to imply you were personally responsible for the ills of days gone by.

JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Wissing
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Re: Born this Way

Post #3

Post by Wissing »

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

I could have been misreading her tone, but I guess her tone of voice sounded accusing. Not accusing me for slavery itself, but accusing me of ignorance for not seeing how that could affect people. (I was especially perturbed at this because how can you blame me for ignorance if you, the teacher, are the very one who is supposed to be informing me?).

The interesting thing, though, is that she may not have meant to convict me. I did feel convicted though. This could be an example of the Holy Spirit convicting me.

What do you think, JehovasWitness? Should whites feel a sense of conviction because they benefit from evils, whose effects persist even now?

Elijah John
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Re: Born this Way

Post #4

Post by Elijah John »

Wissing wrote: [Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

I could have been misreading her tone, but I guess her tone of voice sounded accusing. Not accusing me for slavery itself, but accusing me of ignorance for not seeing how that could affect people. (I was especially perturbed at this because how can you blame me for ignorance if you, the teacher, are the very one who is supposed to be informing me?).

The interesting thing, though, is that she may not have meant to convict me. I did feel convicted though. This could be an example of the Holy Spirit convicting me.

What do you think, JehovasWitness? Should whites feel a sense of conviction because they benefit from evils, whose effects persist even now?
The ONLY people who were responsible for slavery were the slaveholders themselves, and the politicians of the day who supported that immoral institution.

Modern whites have nothing to do with that and should not buy into the guilt that left-wingers are trying to project onto them.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Wissing
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Re: Born this Way

Post #5

Post by Wissing »

[Replying to post 4 by Elijah John]

Sure, as God told Ezekiel, if the son of a wicked man manages to live justly, in the eyes of God, he will not die for the guilt of his father [1]. The problem is, every man descended from Adam sins[2]. They have the unstoppable urge to sin. They do it by nature. They inherited, not the guilt of Adam's sin, but the urge to sin themselves. God need not punish the sons of Adam for the sins of their fathers - every single one of them has enough of their own sins to count against them.
But those who are regenerated by Christ do not live by the same standard. They are reborn. They are no longer descended from Adam. They are children of God[3]. Instead of living by the nature they inherited from Adam, they live by a new nature, and they have a new inheritance. They need not fear God's punishment, for he has forgiven them their sins.
As followers of Christ, we need not fear God's judgment. We are his children. Like the prodigal son, all we have to do is come home, and he will forgive us. So then, let us "habitually put to death the sinful deeds of the body"[3], such as the ones listed in bold below[1], not to mention our lack of unity[4]. Let us confess our sin of racial apathy, and seek to overcome it joyfully. If one believes in the grace of Jesus, why on earth wouldn't they be eager to confess and repent?

[1] Ezek 18:14-Ezek 18:18 AMP “Now behold, if this [wicked] man has a son who has observed all the sins which his father committed, and considers [thoughtfully what he has observed] and does not do like his father: “He does not eat [food set before idols] at the mountain shrines or raise his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife, or oppress anyone, or take anything in pledge, or commit robbery, but he gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing, he keeps his hand from [oppressing] the poor, does not receive interest or increase [from the needy], but executes My ordinances and walks in My statutes; he shall not die for the sin (guilt) of his father; he shall certainly live. As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother, and did that which is not good among his people, behold, he shall die for his sin.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=AMP
(emphasis mine)

[2] Rom 5:12-Rom 5:14 AMP Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, so death spread to all people [no one being able to stop it or escape its power], because they all sinned. Sin was [committed] in the world before the Law [was given], but sin is not charged [against anyone] when there is no law [against it]. Yet death ruled [over mankind] from Adam to Moses [the Lawgiver], even over those who had not sinned as Adam did. Adam is a type of Him (Christ) who was to come [but in reverse—Adam brought destruction, Christ brought salvation].
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=AMP

[3] Rom 8:12-Rom 8:17 AMP So then, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation, but not to our flesh [our human nature, our worldliness, our sinful capacity], to live according to the [impulses of the] flesh [our nature without the Holy Spirit]— for if you are living according to the [impulses of the] flesh, you are going to die. But if [you are living] by the [power of the Holy] Spirit you are habitually putting to death the sinful deeds of the body, you will [really] live forever. For all who are allowing themselves to be led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading again to fear [of God’s judgment], but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons [the Spirit producing sonship] by which we [joyfully] cry, “Abba! Father!� The Spirit Himself testifies and confirms together with our spirit [assuring us] that we [believers] are children of God. And if [we are His] children, [then we are His] heirs also: heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ [sharing His spiritual blessing and inheritance], if indeed we share in His suffering so that we may also share in His glory.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=AMP

[4] John 17:9-John 17:11 AMP I pray for them; I do not pray for the world, but for those You have given Me, because they belong to You; and all things that are Mine are Yours, and [all things that are] Yours are Mine; and I am glorified in them. I am no longer in the world; yet they are still in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, so that they may be one just as We are.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=AMP

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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Born this Way

Post #6

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Wissing wrote:What do you think, JehovasWitness? Should whites feel a sense of conviction because they benefit from evils, whose effects persist even now?
No, God doesn't hold the children responsible for the sins of their parents. We are all to some degree benefit from the suffering of others in this system, but there is little we can do about that short of not consciously buying clothes we know were made in sweat shops and avoiding products made from the suffering of others. But even that is no guarantee, if we live in the West we have the comfort we do because those that came before brutally exploited others. That's just a sad fact of life.

The bible says "man has dominated man to his injury", so rather than carrying a collective sense of guilt, rather recognize sinful mankind has been largely unsuccessful in bring justice to all and turn to God's kingdom for the solution for all these ills.

J
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Wissing
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Re: Born this Way

Post #7

Post by Wissing »

[Replying to post 6 by JehovahsWitness]

Even if we are only accountable for our own sins, this conviction still applies. We benefit from the sins of others, and there is something we can do about it. Therefore if we don't do all that is in our power to resolve the present injustices, we are just as guilty as our fathers. There are sins of omission to be repented of. (Our minds must change). Specific actions will come later (desegregation, equality, overcoming poverty, etc) - that is not my chief concern. My concern is the attitude of the Christian heart. Repentance is an immediate change of attitude that will later result in some sort of outward and visible change.

So, as John and Jesus say (Matthew 3:2, 4:17, 10:7), "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Turning to God's kingdom, as you say, and I agree, is exactly what we should do. The kingdom is at hand, so we should begin living like it. The kingdom is in our midst even now, and has been since the time of Jesus. Many cannot yet see it, but some have already seen it (Matthew 16:28). One day, all will see it, though many will not like what they see.

We must do on earth as it is in heaven.

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