Those heathen Canaanites sacrificed some children

[Zzyzx]

.
Those heathen Canaanites sacrificed some children so we 'children of God' invaded, slaughtered everyone, killed ALL their children, and enjoyed smashing babies against rocks.

We are the good guys because we're God's chosen people and he told us to kill those people – and besides, they lived on land that we wanted; and they worshiped Baal.

Everyone should worship our God because he is the God of love and righteousness.

References:

Numbers 21:3 And the LORD hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities: and he called the name of the place Hormah.

Deuteronomy 20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

Deuteronomy 7:1-5 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, [and] utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

Psalm 137:9 Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.


How can this be justified or excused -- let alone be made to sound noble or heroic?

[DeMotts]

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[Replying to post 77 by bluethread]

What a FINE example of religious teaching – promoting vindictiveness (and defense of the practice).

No, the psalmist is saying that the victim would be happy if the perp's babies were dashed on rocks.

There is no command here or even an encouragement of that behavior, but an acknowledgement that people will respond in a vindictive manner.

That is why we have a psalm regarding a vindictive reaction.

No, it would be expected that the a victim would be vindictive and be happy if the perp were to experience their grief.

Let me put this in a modern context for you. Don't you think that the Kurds would be happy if members of ISIS were burned alive or drowned on cages?

'Dashing babies' seems a bit extreme even for a fanatic – but extremism and fanaticism appear to be acceptable to some religionists, particularly when attempting to defend their literature.

So, are you saying that the Scriptures should only paint a rosy picture? Come on, you would be the first to find fault if the Scriptures did not portray people realistically.

I think the point being made here is that an all-powerful all-knowing all-seeing god that created the universe and inspired the scriptures would be interested in his chosen people experiencing something greater than the visceral thrill of vengeance and violence. It's almost like... it's a book written by people that lived in a violent time... and it reflects their existing morality, ambitions and desires - as well as justifying their actions, no matter how heinous.

Naahhh probably not, probably a divine work of perfection from a deity, probably that instead. Probably a magic book. Probably that.

[bluethread]

I think the point being made here is that an all-powerful all-knowing all-seeing god that created the universe and inspired the scriptures would be interested in his chosen people experiencing something greater than the visceral thrill of vengeance and violence. It's almost like... it's a book written by people that lived in a violent time... and it reflects their existing morality, ambitions and desires - as well as justifying their actions, no matter how heinous.

Naahhh probably not, probably a divine work of perfection from a deity, probably that instead. Probably a magic book. Probably that.

The snarkiness is noted. In the case of this Psalm, you are correct. It is an accurate description of people who lived in a violent time and reflects their existing morality, ambitions and desires. I don't understand this reaction. Haven't any of you read poetry before?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 78 by Zzyzx]


An oft repeated accusation against the bible is that apparently it pronounces a blessing on those that kill babies. This conclusion is based on a quotation from Psalsm 137 which reads

8 O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is he who repays you
for what you have done to us-

9 he who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.

The conclusion that this is either a blessing or an instruction/command from God, can be drawn only if one ignores the words in context. The above is actually part of a Lament, pronounced by the exiled captive Jews that survived the Babylonian destruction of their capital city Jerusalem in the 6th century BCE. Evidently they were subject of much brutality and the song includes a call for revenge, first on their neighbour nation the Edomites (Remember, O LORD, what the Edomites did
on the day Jerusalem fell."Tear it down," they cried,"tear it down to its foundations!" ) and of the Babylonians.

Regarding the latter, notice the words: "happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us". This implies that what was 'done to them' included the detail that is to follow, namely the brutal murder of their children. And the exiles that witnessed this brutality state: " happy is ... he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks").

CONCLUSTION: It is reasonable to conclude that, read in context, Psalms 137v 8-9 is not a divine command or instruction but actually a report of the words of the Jewish captives. The quotation therefore does not constitute a divine blessing on those that kill babies but rather a curse by the Jewish exiles that their captives be submitted to the same treatment they suffered. The report of words or actions do not constitute approval or endorsement.






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[DeMotts]

I think the point being made here is that an all-powerful all-knowing all-seeing god that created the universe and inspired the scriptures would be interested in his chosen people experiencing something greater than the visceral thrill of vengeance and violence. It's almost like... it's a book written by people that lived in a violent time... and it reflects their existing morality, ambitions and desires - as well as justifying their actions, no matter how heinous.

Naahhh probably not, probably a divine work of perfection from a deity, probably that instead. Probably a magic book. Probably that.

The snarkiness is noted. In the case of this Psalm, you are correct. It is an accurate description of people who lived in a violent time and reflects their existing morality, ambitions and desires. I don't understand this reaction. Haven't any of you read poetry before?

Would you say that the passage this thread is referencing about the Canaanites reflects the same human qualities? Would you say that the actions of the Israelites in Numbers 31 when god commands them to "Take vengeance on the Midianites" are similar? Is it POSSIBLE that these passages were written by men and attributed to god to justify their actions?

Cause if I was a leader back in the day that's what I'd do. I'd tell everyone to go whip some ass and that god has your back, take all their stuff that's cool too, kill all their people - that's what god wants.

I'd have them wear cool outfits too. And I'd put a little reminder on it that god is on our side, just in case they had doubts. Remember guys, god wants us to kill people and take stuff. God is with us.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 82 by JehovahsWitness]

No, I think the bashing babies is consistent with the other direction and leadership:

Terracide.
Empowering idiotic psychos to murder thousands (Samson).
Trusting a hallucinating psychopathic murderer to lead the chosen people from Egypt (Moses murdered an Egyptian and saw stuff).
Poor Job.
I'll let the list die - point made.

So, smashing babies is completely in-line with God's other policies.

[JLB32168]

Again.

How about you address my point. A skeptic asked me which crime was greater – that of the Canaanites over centuries or the one-time invasion of the Hebrews. I asked you what criteria or criterion you would use to determine which was the greater crime. You didn’t answer the question. Do you plan to answer it or just change the subject yet again?

Speculative nonsense.

If it’s speculative nonsense, then one wonders why you pulled up details and then go to say that “some historians have disputed this interpretation.� If some are disputing it then others aren’t so apparently they don’t think it’s nonsense – your protests to the contrary notwithstanding.

You guys are fast and loose with words around here.

[DeMotts]

Again.

How about you address my point. A skeptic asked me which crime was greater – that of the Canaanites over centuries or the one-time invasion of the Hebrews. I asked you what criteria or criterion you would use to determine which was the greater crime. You didn’t answer the question. Do you plan to answer it or just change the subject yet again?

Is this an acknowledgement that both actions are in fact crimes?

[Willum]

[Replying to JLB32168]

It's not a complicated question JLB.

A skeptic asked me which crime was greater – that of the Canaanites over centuries or the one-time invasion of the Hebrews.

?
I think perhaps your background must be clouding your judgment, or you wouldn't even ask.

The genocide of a people is far worse than the temporary and not-widely distributed behavior of a few of those people, of course.

Would you like all Christians to be killed based on the behavior of the Spanish under Cortes? Of course not.

[bluethread]

Would you say that the passage this thread is referencing about the Canaanites reflects the same human qualities? Would you say that the actions of the Israelites in Numbers 31 when god commands them to "Take vengeance on the Midianites" are similar? Is it POSSIBLE that these passages were written by men and attributed to god to justify their actions?

Cause if I was a leader back in the day that's what I'd do. I'd tell everyone to go whip some ass and that god has your back, take all their stuff that's cool too, kill all their people - that's what god wants.

I'd have them wear cool outfits too. And I'd put a little reminder on it that god is on our side, just in case they had doubts. Remember guys, god wants us to kill people and take stuff. God is with us.

No, one is poetry that speaks to the emotions of the people. The other is a stated command of Adonai. Conflating the two is not appropriate. They are different historically, literally and culturally. Whether or not that is what you would does not mean that was what happened.

[DeMotts]

Would you say that the passage this thread is referencing about the Canaanites reflects the same human qualities? Would you say that the actions of the Israelites in Numbers 31 when god commands them to "Take vengeance on the Midianites" are similar? Is it POSSIBLE that these passages were written by men and attributed to god to justify their actions?

Cause if I was a leader back in the day that's what I'd do. I'd tell everyone to go whip some ass and that god has your back, take all their stuff that's cool too, kill all their people - that's what god wants.

I'd have them wear cool outfits too. And I'd put a little reminder on it that god is on our side, just in case they had doubts. Remember guys, god wants us to kill people and take stuff. God is with us.

No, one is poetry that speaks to the emotions of the people. The other is a stated command of Adonai. Conflating the two is not appropriate. They are different historically, literally and culturally. Whether or not that is what you would does not mean that was what happened.

So to go back to my question, do you think the actions of the Hebrews concerning the Caananites and the Midianites are the commandments of an all-powerful god, or some dudes writing a little post-game explanation for why they went all genocidal on some folks? And do you think it is at all even possible that this type of post-hoc justification might be in the bible anywhere?