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Elijah John
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:08 am  Evangelicals vs. Jehovah's Witnesses Reply with quote

Evangelicals often call Jehovah's Witnesses, a "cult" and not Christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses, seem to consider Roman Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox etc, "not-Christian" (JWs please correct me if I'm wrong on this)

Question for debate, why can't all of these groups rightly be considered "Christian"?

And part two of this OP question is directed primarily to Evangelicals, why don't you consider JWs to be Christian?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 271: Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:15 pm
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hoghead1 wrote:

[Replying to arian]

I find your inflammatory rhetoric and personal insults totally inappropriate in a serious theological discussion group.


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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 272: Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:46 pm
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Re: Evangelicals vs. Jehovah's Witnesses

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arian wrote:



Yes, the theological (study of god/gods) explanation, as in religion do make God out to be "just one of the gods in religions, the biggest one, .. or most powerful etc. but that is NOT what the Bible teaches.

...................................


Naming our Infinite Creator like someone names a pet is wrong..


From the first comment here, it is obvious you believe in the principle of Divine revelation, and that the Bible at least contains some of that revelation, correct?

The Bible also teaches that God revealed His name to us, we did not name Him.

Moses and the Prophets and King David use the Divine name almost 7000 in the Hebrew Bible.

So, if God revealed His name to us, how can it be wrong to use it, or call on Him...by name?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 273: Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:01 am
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arian wrote:


Have you ever thought about giving up religion and being "Born Again"? You know, in the Newness of your mind so you wouldn't "see" things in the Bible that is clearly not there.

Satan on the other hand divines his lies to servants/mediums, .. Christians who graduated with a degree in "Divination" from accredited Schools of Divinity, or a Trinity-College, and he does that from the "supernatural" realm.

ALL religions worship some supernatural beings as gods who divine to them. My God, the One .. the Only Possible One (because there can't exist another Infinite) is not one of your god/gods you study in theology, which in Greek means "the study of gods". This is why no Religion knows our Infinite Creator, because religion by definition is the worship of god/gods created by said religion.

This is why to me it's funny when I see one religious denomination going against another religious denomination, .. it's like when I used to watch black kids fighting back in Detroit because the other called him a "nigger".

"Who you calling a nigga, Nigga? .. I ain't your nigger!" .. and then like in the old Batman show; Wham! Bang! Pow!

In religion it's: "Your deity is not the true deity, you pervert the Bible!" LOL

They're all religions, and it all started right after God chased Cain away from the land of Eden. Man needs God like children need parents, so instead of repenting and apologizing to daddy, man gets angry and creates his own gods even if they are deities/demons who reside in the supernatural realm.

Lucifer: "Naaaw, you don't need God, you can create your own, as many as you want! Heck, I'll be your god, the one-true-deity, and if you bow down and worship me, I'LL GIVE YOU THE WORLD, .. and you can kill as many people as you want! Heck, I'll even help you open a "Children's Cancer Hospital" where you can kill the children with the cure, lol, you will really enjoy that, .. I know I do!"

That is truly sad that you don't see the irony in them "Trinitarian models/theories" as you said. But coming from a Religious Scholar, that is expected; "If you don't like one confusing trinity story, hack, we got all kinds you can choose from!" .. anything as long as you remain blind to the truth, .. which is what?


see what I mean by religion surviving on keeping their sheep walking by 'blind faith'??

Read it man, open your eyes, step outside of your religious indoctrination at least long enough to grasp this:





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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 274: Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:59 am
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hoghead1 wrote:

[Replying to post 267 by 2timothy316


I'm not sure I follow you at all here. You pulled up a brief excerpt from an article about Constantine, which I agree with. Please do not do my thinking for me, or put words in my mouth. Now, if you wish to challenge a particular point I have made, then you should identify it and provide your counterargument.

Do you remember saying the following?
hoghead1 wrote:

[Replying to post 241 by onewithhim]
I find it hard to believe that the Watchtower Society is doing anything near serious scholarly research. It's materials show no real degree of scholarship and it is noted for its vicious anti-intellectual propaganda, raving against higher education, which views as a thing of the Devil.


Care to retract your statement about what I learn? After all you did say,
Quote:
You pulled up a brief excerpt from an article about Constantine, which I agree with.


If you agree with that do you agree with the following?

"IN THE year 325 C.E., Roman Emperor Constantine summoned all bishops to Nicaea. His objective: to settle the much debated issue of God’s relationship to his Son. Among those present was the man regarded the most learned of his age, Eusebius of Caesarea. Eusebius had studied the Scriptures diligently and had been a defender of Christian monotheism.

At the Council of Nicaea, “Constantine himself presided,” relates The Encyclopædia Britannica, “actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, ‘of one substance with the Father’ . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination.”

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 275: Fri Nov 11, 2016 7:26 pm
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[Replying to 2timothy316]

OK, well, let me clarify a couple of important points here. One is that I am talking about the Watchtower Society, not necessarily yours. Now, according to the Watchtower's corrupted version of history, there was initially a unified, Jehovah's Witness-type church, which was later busted up by the mean, nasty Trinitarians, as I pointed out in an earlier post. As a theologian, I have received all kinds of emails form JW's denouncing every church father from Tertullian onward as a child of the Devil who destroyed the true church. However, a basic flaw in their argument is that facts of history indicate no such unified church initially there. Rather, we are dealing with sects that often feuded. That's why I spoke about Christianities. Incidentally, if there was a group, kind of fringe element, that broke up a unified church, it was the Arians or anti-Trinitarians. Read Constantine's letter to Arius, where he complains that Arius and company are disturbing the harmony of an already well-established Christian church.

The Watchtower's understanding of history is suspicious from day one. The Watchtower has a long, proven track record of generating hate-mongering propaganda aimed at Jews and Catholics. Rutherford, who was president of the Society for 25 years, was a notorious raving Jew-baiter. At a Bible Students' convention, around 1922, he described the Jew as "the hook-nosed, stooped-shouldered little individual who stands on the street corner trying to gyp you out of every nickel you've got." This hate-mongering still continues today. A Watchtower publication titled "You Can Live Forever In paradise on Earth" (1985) asks about the Jews, "Was God really their father. It answers, "Not at all. Jews are from their father the Devil." It's no ssurprise the Watchtower Society tried to get in bed with Hitler. In a previous post, I provided copes of their Declaration of Facts and letter to the Fuhrer. Here is a sample as to how they understand history, taken from their Declaration of Facts.

"The greatest and most oppressive empire on earth is the Anglo-American empire. By that is meant the British Empire, of which the United States of America forms a part. It has been the commercial Jews of the British-American empire that have built up and carried on Big Business as a means of exploiting and oppressing the peoples of many nations. This fact particularly applies to the cities of London and New York, the stronghold of Big Business. This fact is so manifest in America that there is a proverb concerning the city of New York which says: `The Jews own it, the Irish Catholics rule it, and the Americans pay the bills.' We have no fight with any of these persons mentioned, but, as the witnesses for Jehovah and in obedience to his commandment set forth in the Scriptures, we are compelled to call attention to the truth concerning the same in order that the people may be enlightened concerning God and his purpose."

Now, maybe the JW's think this is real history. And maybe it appears that way to individuals with a Nazi-like mind-et. But I leave a lot to be desired for those of us who seek a more objective understanding of history.

At the same time, the Watchtower Society is notorious for publishing anti-intellectual rants against higher education. Russell, one of the pillar of the Society wrote, "I advise all Christian not to send their children to colleges or universities; for if they do, they will risk great harm through infidelity and unbelief, and they will be doing their children a positive injury." The Watchtower, 1969, Mar.15, p.171, states, "Many schools now have student counselors who encourage one to pursue higher education after high school...Do no be influenced by them. Do not let them brainwash you with the Devil's propaganda." On and on it goes. Demonizing scholastics is a major tenet of the Watchtower Society. Therefore, the Society has absolutely zero historical credibility in my book.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 276: Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:34 pm
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Re: Evangelicals vs. Jehovah's Witnesses

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hoghead1 wrote:

[Replying to arian]

I find your inflammatory rhetoric and personal insults totally inappropriate in a serious theological discussion group.


It's called debating, this is where you point out my "inflammatory rhetoric and personal insults", .. The Jews did it to Jesus, so if I'm here speaking in His name, it shouldn't be any different for me, right?

the·ol·o·gy
noun: theology
the study of the nature of God and religious belief.
•religious beliefs and theory when systematically developed.

from Latin theologia, from Greek, from theos ‘god’ + -logia (see -logy).


Tell me, what did the Greeks know about our Hebrew God, or about the Jewish Jesus? Theology is the study of gods, not necessarily the God of the Bible.

What is the god in Christianity?
He is a "Deity who rules from the supernatural realm", .. should I say more?

And to use the Bible, and those words from the Bible and give a deity who rules from the supernatural realm the credit is blasphemy!

A House Divided Cannot Stand
Mathew 12:22 Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the blind and mute man both spoke and saw. 23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”


The Unpardonable Sin
Matthew 12:31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Now please tell me what did Jesus consider "blasphemy", the unpardonable sin? It was to this:

Jesus was casting out demons by the Power of the Holy Spirit, for God is Holy and Spirit, correct? Now what did the Pharisees call the Holy Spirit Jesus was casting out demons by?

Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.

To which Jesus replied:
".. but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come!"

My dear friend, instead of acting as if I offended you, shouldn't you, being a Bible Scholar fall on your knees and ask God to help you stop referring to God as a Deity who rules from the supernatural realm?

Beelzebub/Lucifer who is the ruler of the demons now resides in the supernatural realm because him and his angels were cast out of Heaven, where God reigns from, .. not the supernatural realm.

God, who resides in Heaven reveals His will through His Prophets, Apostles and now through those Believers who have been "born again" in the "newness of their mind"

But Satan and his angels, after being thrown out of Heaven now reside in earths supernatural realm, from where they "divine" their half truths and lies to mediums, Diviners, those who go to Schools of Divinity to get their degree in divination.

Constantine and his Catholic church took our Lord Jesus, and deified Him, making him a deity, a god through their man-made trinity doctrine, making Our Infinite and Eternal God a deity also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faC_NA2bJO0

Just one of the many evidences out there of the creation of the Christian Religion.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 277: Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:18 am
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arian wrote:


My dear friend, instead of acting as if I offended you, shouldn't you, being a Bible Scholar fall on your knees and ask God to help you stop referring to God as a Deity who rules from the supernatural realm?


But Satan and his angels, after being thrown out of Heaven now reside in earths supernatural realm, from where they "divine" their half truths and lies to mediums, Diviners, those who go to Schools of Divinity to get their degree in divination.


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Totally inappropriate. You are preaching and in a very offensive manner, using your faith as a rhetorical weapon against a fellow debator. And that is a personal attack. You have been with us long enough to know better, and if you want to stay with us, change your approach and get back to civil debating.

Please review the Rules.


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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 278: Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:13 pm
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Re: Evangelicals vs. Jehovah's Witnesses

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arian wrote:

onewithhim wrote:


I apologize for not acknowledging your post #8. One thing for sure, "E.G." got good explanations for his erroneous views.

I didn't follow some of your comments, like Eve representing the Son. That's a new one to me. I think the explanation of John 1:1---"and the Word was God"---that shows that the actual statement of John was "and the Word was a god" is the most reliable explanation. People at that time used the title "god" to refer to powerful humans and angels as well as God Almighty.....the CONTEXT defining the usage, and also the rules for translating from Greek to English must be considered, which "the Word was God" adherents do not consider.


sorry for the late response, hoping to catch up!?

Yes, the theological (study of god/gods) explanation, as in religion do make God out to be "just one of the gods in religions, the biggest one, .. or most powerful etc. but that is NOT what the Bible teaches.

God said: "Let us make man in our own image" remember? "Male and female He created them", .. correct?

The religious theologians made God out to be a mentally ill, deified man, a deity, who has a "multiple personality disorder" who talks to himself.

As if that wasn't bad enough, they turned our Infinite and Eternal Creator who Himself said that His home was in Heaven, into three persons, .. deities (both Trinitarians and non-Trinitarians call God a Deity) who rules from earths supernatural realm, .. which is where Satan and his angels were cast down into, where he roams around like a "roaring lion" (sounds familiar?) to devour whom he may!

God said "let us make man, .." which means He was talking to His Son Word, by and through whom He created all things including Adam and Eve.

Adam represents the image of God, and Eve (being taken out of Adam, just as God beget His Son Word from within himself) represents Gods Son.

In the beginning was the Word, .. God has no beginning nor end. So the beginning with God was when He created/begotten His Son Word, .. who "was with God", and before that, "was God", .. just as Eve before God took her out of Adam "was Adam"!

It's all there in both OT and the New, just have to have the Spirit of God put it all together for you, .. and not some religious Scholar who is heavily influenced by his religion, especially influenced by someone like the Pope, and his Catholic Religion.

onewithhim wrote:
Um, you said that JWs "make up a dozen more" blasphemies, to take the place of the one they deny. That surprised me. Just what would you say are the "blasphemies" that they make up?

I stopped trying to figure out who was saying what, so I'll stop here. I enjoyed many of your comments, but I got confused as to what E.G. was saying and what you were saying.

Neutral


Naming our Infinite Creator like someone names a pet is wrong.
Calling "Gods Only Begotten Son Word" a "Cherubim", .. a deity who resides in the supernatural realm is blasphemy.

Lucifer was an anointing Cherub, who now has been cast down to earths supernatural realm from where he acts "Like the Most High", so both God and His Son Jesus are made into Lucifer and some sun-god, .. deities, men, .. three men/persons deified to godhood who represent the "idea" god.

God bless.

I agree that Jehovah spoke to his Son in heaven and said, "Let us make man in our image." They made humans in their image, that is, with their attributes of love, power, wisdom, and justice.

I also agree with what you said about teaching that God is a "trinity." However, it seems like you are contradicting yourself when you say that the Son "was God," at any point, which you did indeed say.

I don't know where in the Bible it suggests that Eve represented God's Son. Where would that be?

I also don't understand why you vehemently object to God having a name. The Bible has presented God's name 7,000 times, all throughout the Old Testament, in the original Hebrew/Aramaic texts. You compare having a name with being a pet? Then what do you call PEOPLE, all of whom have names?

What is your reason for saying that Jesus was not an angel in the spiritual realm before he came to earth (and afterward)? Why is this "blasphemy"? Didn't he himself say that he came down from heaven?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 279: Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:35 pm
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Re: Evangelicals vs. Jehovah's Witnesses

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[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

The next verse Romans 14:9 explains who is Lord mentioned in the previous verse.
"For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living."
If YW people believe Jesus Christ is Jehovah, then their claim is right that they are Christians.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 280: Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:53 pm
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Re: Evangelicals vs. Jehovah's Witnesses

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Fellowchristian wrote:

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

The next verse Romans 14:9 explains who is Lord mentioned in the previous verse.
"For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living."
If YW people believe Jesus Christ is Jehovah, then their claim is right that they are Christians.

Jesus Christ cannot be Jehovah, because Jehovah is the Father, to whom Christ prayed. He also indicated that it is a fact that he and Jehovah are two distinct individuals when he quoted Isaiah 61 during his address to the synagogue at Luke 4:17-21. Young's Literal Translation renders Isaiah 61 as:

"The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is on me [Christ], because Jehovah did anoint me to proclaim tidings to the humble, He sent me to bind the broken of heart, to proclaim to captives liberty, and to bound ones an opening of bands." (Isaiah 61:1)


The writer of Psalm 110 also indicated that Jehovah and the Messiah are two distinct persons:

"The affirmation of Jehovah to my Lord [the Messiah]: Sit at my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool." (Psalm 110:1, Young's Literal Translation)

Does Jehovah sit at His own right hand?



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