Are Christian apologies in order for Amer. Democracy's fall

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2Dbunk
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Are Christian apologies in order for Amer. Democracy's fall

Post #1

Post by 2Dbunk »

Are Christian apologies in order for today's state of American Democracy
Edward Gibbon in his “Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire� (1776) hints that Constantine’s elevation of Christianity in the 4th century of Rome aided in the decline of that civilization.
"The theologian may indulge the pleasing task of describing Religion as she descended from Heaven, arrayed in her native purity. A more melancholy duty is imposed on the historian. He must discover the inevitable mixture of error and corruption which she contracted in a long residence upon Earth, among a weak and degenerate race of beings."

"... life is the great object of religion, we may hear without surprise or scandal that the introduction, or least the abuse, of Christianity had some influence on the decline and fall of the Roman empire. The clergy successfully preached the doctrines of patience and pusillanimity; the active virtues of society were discouraged; and the last remains of military spirit were buried in the cloister. A large portion of public and private wealth were consecrated to the specious demands of charity and devotion, and the soldiers' pay was lavished on the useless multitudes of both sexes who could only plead the merits of abstinence and chastity. Faith, zeal, curiosity, and more earthly passions of malice and ambition kindled the flame of theological factions, whose conflicts were sometimes bloody and always implacable; the attention of the emperors was diverted from camps to synods; the Roman world was oppressed by a new species of tyranny, and the persecuted sects became the secret enemies of the country."

The above passages are open to being contrasted with a previous, pagan, situation where "The various modes of worship which prevailed in the Roman world, were all considered by the people, as equally true; by the philosopher; as equally false; and by the magistrate, as equally useful." Gibbon suggests that "Toleration produced not only a mutual indulgence, but even religious concord."

Two further volumes of the Decline and Fall, which bring to an end the period of the Western Empire (to about AD 480) appeared in April 1781 and these also sold well.
Gibbon summed up the Fall of the Roman Empire in the west as "the triumph of barbarism and religion!!!" from: age-of-the-sage.org
Compare this with today’s fall of American Democracy. The last truly great presidents that our nation has had are Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman and Dwight Eisenhower. That leaves us a hiatus of more than half-of a century of mediocrity, the latter end of which has been the dismal parade of wannabes tilting for the office as the least dismal alternative. Why? In the last half century the religion card has been played more and more proving the emotional gullibility and ignorance of the masses.

Today, religion is a necessity for the office – but not just any religion. Protestant Christianity is preferred but Catholics are somewhat tolerated. Jews and Muslims need not apply, including all of the eastern “cults.� Atheists, since they are not banned from our shores, are still held in even less esteem. Again, why? Most if not every religious person is convinced that all other religions are dangerous, unholy cults; most Americans are of some form of nearly 40,000 varieties of Protestantism. Make any sense? Sure: “We are a Christiun nation – Atheists are evil ‘cause they don’t believe in God.�

I truly believe that Democracy is floundering because of the singular inanity of requiring Christianity as a pre-requisite for the office of the President. Look at today’s candidates: both professing deep religious faith (Christian of course) yet calling each other crooks and liars (and to a large intent, they are both right). Speaking as an Atheist, I KNOW my wife would be morally MUCH MORE SUPERIOR to either of them (she wouldn’t know the ins and outs of government like Hillary does nor the tax laws and their loopholes as Donald does).

I say morally because to be an atheist one must confront the god notion – a very brave and honest thing to do (honest in that my wife’s and my soul is on the block so to speak – we refuse to live a lie that “God� has control or can control our lives). For 17 years I have never caught her in a lie, nor has she found me in a lie (and we play board games every night). We do not lie or take advantage of our neighbors and our friends.

In short and in conclusion I think for the Democratic process to REALLY SUCCEED, THE RELIGION CARD MUST BE ELIMINATED FROM THE ELECTORAL DECK!!! Most of the founding fathers had no problem with the likes of Thomas Paine, as well as the free thinking of Madison and Jefferson, all stellar contributors to our founding. Let’s not sully it now so that we may continue in their spirit.

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Post #51

Post by Zzyzx »

.
1213 wrote: My original point was just to show that the number of religious people in prison doesn’t tell were they religious when they committed the crime. And therefore, it is not possible with current information to tell how common it is for religious people, or Christian people, to commit crimes. So, you don’t have to believe that they were not, but there is currently no reason to believe they were religious or Christian before the prison.
Bold added

Okay. by the same token there is currently no reason to believe people who claim to be religious when doing good deeds were actually religious when they did the deeds. Right? Or is this a one-way street?
.
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ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

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Post #52

Post by Monta »

[Replying to 2Dbunk]


"Spirit is defined many ways. You are hung up on the "spirit of the Holy Ghost'' which is hardly the "end all" of spirit's definition."

You are assuming to know what I think; bad.

Holy Spirit is uncreate, infinite and eternal.
Man is a created being therefore his spirit is also created.
Man's soul is the receptacle of the Divine Life (all life is Divine)
and from his soul man has the ability to think and do; this is his spirit.

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Post #53

Post by 2Dbunk »

[Replying to post 52 by Monta]
You are assuming to know what I think; bad.
You're right, I thought I knew what you were thinking. Now I'm not so sure.
Holy Spirit is uncreate, infinite and eternal.


Sez you
(all life is Divine)
With many notable exceptions.
and from his soul man has the ability to think and do; this is his spirit.
Isn't that what I said -- with different wording?
What good is truth if its value is not more than unproven, handed-down faith?

One believes things because one is conditioned to believe them. -Aldous Huxley

Fear within the Religious will always be with them ... as long as they are fearful of death.

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Post #54

Post by Monta »

[Replying to 2Dbunk]


"Isn't that what I said -- with different wording?"

I think you brought in the Holy Spirit which is
one aspect of a truine God.

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Post #55

Post by 2Dbunk »

[Replying to post 54 by Monta]
I think you brought in the Holy Spirit which is
one aspect of a truine God.
"triune" is that a word? I'm sorry. I'm finding it difficult to follow your line of reasoning. It's just that I find you more amorphous than I thought you'd be.
What good is truth if its value is not more than unproven, handed-down faith?

One believes things because one is conditioned to believe them. -Aldous Huxley

Fear within the Religious will always be with them ... as long as they are fearful of death.

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Re: Are Christian apologies in order for Amer. Democracy's f

Post #56

Post by bjs »

[Replying to 2Dbunk]

This may have already been mentioned, but Gibbon's take on the role of Christianity in Rome's decline has been almost universally rejected by scholars.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... 0be23f33c3
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo

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Re: Are Christian apologies in order for Amer. Democracy's f

Post #57

Post by 2Dbunk »

[Replying to post 56 by bjs]

I visited your link and I believe it to be an opinion (OUTLOOK section of the Washington Post is a Sunday opinion section), not one having the gravitas of authority. Anyway, what IS interesting are the 260 some comments following the article. It is quite a debate, not least of which is Gibbon's impact on today's world.

Other sources of intellectual authority like the following quote from an article on Gibbon in New World Encyclopedia is very supportive of today's importance of his signature effort:
Gibbon’s theory borrowed from the Roman moralists of the fourth and fifth centuries, who said that the Roman Empire succumbed to barbarian invasions because of a loss of civic virtue among its citizens. His treatment of Christianity as a historical phenomenon met with strenuous objections from the Church. Gibbon’s insistence on using primary sources wherever possible, his meticulous documentation of his research and his careful citations of all his sources set a standard for modern historians, who still rely on Gibbon as a secondary source.
What good is truth if its value is not more than unproven, handed-down faith?

One believes things because one is conditioned to believe them. -Aldous Huxley

Fear within the Religious will always be with them ... as long as they are fearful of death.

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Re: Are Christian apologies in order for Amer. Democracy's f

Post #58

Post by 4insight »

2Dbunk wrote: Are Christian apologies in order for today's state of American Democracy
Edward Gibbon in his “Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire� (1776) hints that Constantine’s elevation of Christianity in the 4th century of Rome aided in the decline of that civilization.
"The theologian may indulge the pleasing task of describing Religion as she descended from Heaven, arrayed in her native purity. A more melancholy duty is imposed on the historian. He must discover the inevitable mixture of error and corruption which she contracted in a long residence upon Earth, among a weak and degenerate race of beings."

"... life is the great object of religion, we may hear without surprise or scandal that the introduction, or least the abuse, of Christianity had some influence on the decline and fall of the Roman empire. The clergy successfully preached the doctrines of patience and pusillanimity; the active virtues of society were discouraged; and the last remains of military spirit were buried in the cloister. A large portion of public and private wealth were consecrated to the specious demands of charity and devotion, and the soldiers' pay was lavished on the useless multitudes of both sexes who could only plead the merits of abstinence and chastity. Faith, zeal, curiosity, and more earthly passions of malice and ambition kindled the flame of theological factions, whose conflicts were sometimes bloody and always implacable; the attention of the emperors was diverted from camps to synods; the Roman world was oppressed by a new species of tyranny, and the persecuted sects became the secret enemies of the country."

The above passages are open to being contrasted with a previous, pagan, situation where "The various modes of worship which prevailed in the Roman world, were all considered by the people, as equally true; by the philosopher; as equally false; and by the magistrate, as equally useful." Gibbon suggests that "Toleration produced not only a mutual indulgence, but even religious concord."

Two further volumes of the Decline and Fall, which bring to an end the period of the Western Empire (to about AD 480) appeared in April 1781 and these also sold well.
Gibbon summed up the Fall of the Roman Empire in the west as "the triumph of barbarism and religion!!!" from: age-of-the-sage.org
Compare this with today’s fall of American Democracy. The last truly great presidents that our nation has had are Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman and Dwight Eisenhower. That leaves us a hiatus of more than half-of a century of mediocrity, the latter end of which has been the dismal parade of wannabes tilting for the office as the least dismal alternative. Why? In the last half century the religion card has been played more and more proving the emotional gullibility and ignorance of the masses.

Today, religion is a necessity for the office – but not just any religion. Protestant Christianity is preferred but Catholics are somewhat tolerated. Jews and Muslims need not apply, including all of the eastern “cults.� Atheists, since they are not banned from our shores, are still held in even less esteem. Again, why? Most if not every religious person is convinced that all other religions are dangerous, unholy cults; most Americans are of some form of nearly 40,000 varieties of Protestantism. Make any sense? Sure: “We are a Christiun nation – Atheists are evil ‘cause they don’t believe in God.�

I truly believe that Democracy is floundering because of the singular inanity of requiring Christianity as a pre-requisite for the office of the President. Look at today’s candidates: both professing deep religious faith (Christian of course) yet calling each other crooks and liars (and to a large intent, they are both right). Speaking as an Atheist, I KNOW my wife would be morally MUCH MORE SUPERIOR to either of them (she wouldn’t know the ins and outs of government like Hillary does nor the tax laws and their loopholes as Donald does).

I say morally because to be an atheist one must confront the god notion – a very brave and honest thing to do (honest in that my wife’s and my soul is on the block so to speak – we refuse to live a lie that “God� has control or can control our lives). For 17 years I have never caught her in a lie, nor has she found me in a lie (and we play board games every night). We do not lie or take advantage of our neighbors and our friends.

In short and in conclusion I think for the Democratic process to REALLY SUCCEED, THE RELIGION CARD MUST BE ELIMINATED FROM THE ELECTORAL DECK!!! Most of the founding fathers had no problem with the likes of Thomas Paine, as well as the free thinking of Madison and Jefferson, all stellar contributors to our founding. Let’s not sully it now so that we may continue in their spirit.
Well this nation has started off as a Christian nation, until the devil has infiltrated it way into the scene.

“It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor.�
– George Washington http://lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/GW/gw004.html

2Dbunk
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Re: Are Christian apologies in order for Amer. Democracy's f

Post #59

Post by 2Dbunk »

[Replying to post 58 by 4insight]
Well this nation has started off as a Christian nation, until the devil has infiltrated it way into the scene.
WOW, such pessimism! How many times do I have to remind people of the wording in the Treaty of Tripoli, passed unanimously by the Senate and signed by John Adams.
'The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.' That was ratified by the United States Senate without debate unanimously in 1797."
What good is truth if its value is not more than unproven, handed-down faith?

One believes things because one is conditioned to believe them. -Aldous Huxley

Fear within the Religious will always be with them ... as long as they are fearful of death.

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