Al-Taqiyya

Argue for and against religions and philosophies which are not Christian

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sawthelight
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Al-Taqiyya

Post #1

Post by sawthelight »

How does a religion that spreads a message of supposed truth allow itself to use lies?

Why would allah allow lying if his words and religion are indeed truthful? This is a contradiction as well as self-diminishing to a supposed truthful god.
Whoever disbelieves in Allah after his belief... except for one who is forced [to renounce his religion] while his heart is secure in faith. But those who [willingly] open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from Allah , and for them is a great punishment (Quran 16:106)
So basically here any muslim can lie to save themselves from death for being a muslim. So allah will let his own people disown him verbally as a lie to allow his muslims to save their own skin because the religion is filled with strength in being true? or being in deceitful?

What is troubling is there are loads of other taqiyya verses littered throughout the quran.

If islam really is a religion that is true, then there is nothing to fear but allah. For allah would hold judgement for everyone regardless if they are Ghengas Khan (who supposedly muslims trembled in fear of) or Hitler. Why would allah allow his muslims to fear other men if allah's religion is indeed the true and powerful religion? Is it a strength of character to lie or rather speak the truth? Is it better to be brave or to be a coward? Is it really considered brave to have the guts to lie so you can cling unto your life? Is that really commendable? How could the coward be venerated in allah's eyes when allah speaks the supposed truth but his follower doesn't? How do these two match in value and belief system? Can any muslim say that it does?

It even seems to me in the verse above, allah is in fact telling his followers to fear mortal beings along side allah. So therefore they should lie to keep their lives because they must fear other mortals who will take their lives.

However, this suddenly goes against quran 3:175:
“…so fear them not, but fear Me, if you are (true) believers…"
Here we have a contradiction. Here, muslims should only fear god and not other mortals. But lying is an indication of being fearful for your life in the hands of another mortal rather than being brave and true to allah's cause.

And the fact is the liar cannot be the true believer because he fears other men rather than allah alone. However, the two verses contradict each other anyways so it also seems allah is not truthful.

Any corrections?

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #31

Post by sawthelight »

Al-Fatihah wrote:Response: You show fear to only Allah by defeating the enemy, as been said to you repeatedly. Therefore, there is clearly no contradiction since the statement I just said to you says to fear Allah only to defeat the enemy. That's an exception. Not a contradiction.
If god is sufficient for you before the enemy attacks then why lie to save your own life?:
Those to whom hypocrites said, "Indeed, the people have gathered against you, so fear them." But it [merely] increased them in faith, and they said, "Sufficient for us is Allah , and [He is] the best Disposer of affairs." (quran 3:173)
Surely allah is sufficient. No need to fear another mortal. No need to lie. But all of a sudden it is okay to lie. Why? Now allah all of a sudden is not sufficient for the believer? Sounds like a contradiction of islam.

Shouldn't muslims be increasing in faith as quran 3:173 illustrates? Surely muslims are true believers in allah if they fear only him and not other mortals to save their own lives.

The hypocrite is the one who fears his enemies as surah 3:173 points out. So are not the muslims who fear another mortal considered a hypocrite for not being brave enough to face them head on with allah? Surely lying to save your life demonstrates your fear for other than allah. It also makes you out as a hypocrite according to allah's surah 3:173-175.
Last edited by sawthelight on Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #32

Post by Al-Fatihah »

intheabyss wrote:

If god is sufficient for you before the enemy attacks then why lie to save your own life?:
Those to whom hypocrites said, "Indeed, the people have gathered against you, so fear them." But it [merely] increased them in faith, and they said, "Sufficient for us is Allah , and [He is] the best Disposer of affairs." (quran 3:173)
Surely allah is sufficient. No need to fear. No need to lie. But all of a sudden it is okay to lie. Why? Now allah all of a sudden is not sufficient for the believer? Shouldn't muslims be increasing in faith as quran 3:173 illustrates? Surely muslims are true believers in allah if they fear only him.
Response: God is sufficient in reference to those who overcome the fear and choose to fear Allah only to defeat the enemy. Yet Allah knows that some are not as brave and allows them to lie in order to save their life and Allah is merciful of their decision.

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #33

Post by sawthelight »

Al-Fatihah wrote:Response: God is sufficient in reference to those who overcome the fear and choose to fear Allah only to defeat the enemy. Yet Allah knows that some are not as brave and allows them to lie in order to save their life and Allah is merciful of their decision.
Those are not true believers then:
That is only Satan who frightens [you] of his supporters. So fear them not, but fear Me, if you are [indeed] believers. surah 3:175
If they are not true believers, they go to hell-fire. So all the muslims who lie to save their life go to hell-fire. So you can't use taqiyya then.

However, that still contradicts with allah's own word. He allows muslims to use taqiyya when muslims fear other mortals but then commands muslims to fear only him and not other mortals. You cannot fear only god and fear other mortals at the same time.

That is a contradiction.

Response.

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #34

Post by Al-Fatihah »

intheabyss wrote:

Those are not true believers then:
That is only Satan who frightens [you] of his supporters. So fear them not, but fear Me, if you are [indeed] believers. surah 3:175
If they are not true believers, they go to hell-fire. So all the muslims who lie to save their life go to hell-fire. So you can't use taqiyya then.

However, that still contradicts with allah's own word. He allows others to fear other mortals but commands no one fear other mortals at the same time. You cannot fear only god and fear other mortals at the same time.

That is a contradiction.
Response: A contradiction is two statements that oppose each other. Therefore a contradictory statement would say:

A. You are not allowed to fear anyone but Allah.
B. It is okay to show fear to your enemy

That is an example of a contradiction because the first statement "forbids" the latter. Hence the words, "not allowed".
Therefore, the Qur'an does not contradict because the words "not allowed" or anything synonymous to it is not mentioned.

Rather, it says fear Allah only, which can refer to all things in general or based on condition. To know so you must refer to the context and the context shows that the verse before it refers defeating the enemy. Therefore, the verse is conditional and says to fear Allah only in order to defeat the enemy. Since it is conditional, there is no contradiction. That is call an exception.

As for a true believer, again the verse does not say "if you don't you are not a true believer". Therefore, your interpolation fails.

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #35

Post by sawthelight »

Al-Fatihah wrote: Response: A contradiction is two statements that oppose each other. Therefore a contradictory statement would say:

A. You are not allowed to fear anyone but Allah.
B. It is okay to show fear to your enemy

That is an example of a contradiction because the first statement "forbids" the latter. Hence the words, "not allowed".
Therefore, the Qur'an does not contradict because the words "not allowed" or anything synonymous to it is not mentioned.
Provide evidence for this. I see nothing of what you mention on this matter.

Al-Fatihah wrote: Rather, it says fear Allah only, which can refer to all things in general or based on condition. To know so you must refer to the context and the context shows that the verse before it refers defeating the enemy. Therefore, the verse is conditional and says to fear Allah only in order to defeat the enemy. Since it is conditional, there is no contradiction. That is call an exception.
The context shows that you should have more faith in allah when attacked by enemy (highlighted in blue). That is the context you tried to provide:
Those to whom hypocrites said, "Indeed, the people have gathered against you, so fear them." But it [merely] increased them in faith, and they said, "Sufficient for us is Allah ,and [He is] the best Disposer of affairs." (surah 3:173)
So if it is conditional to an attack, then clearly as these muslims grew in faith in imminent danger, so should other muslims bolster their faith during an attack. Otherwise to withdraw and to fear other mortals: Those to whom hypocrites said, "Indeed, the people have gathered against you, so fear them." would label you as a hypocrite.



So your interpolation makes no sense. It still contradicts.
Last edited by sawthelight on Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #36

Post by sawthelight »

Al-Fatihah wrote: Rather, it says fear Allah only, which can refer to all things in general or based on condition.
Since you say that surah 3:173-175 can be taken in general. So should quran 16:106. It too then can generally mean you can lie to anyone for any reason.

Thank you for that.

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #37

Post by Al-Fatihah »

intheabyss wrote:
Al-Fatihah wrote: Response: A contradiction is two statements that oppose each other. Therefore a contradictory statement would say:

A. You are not allowed to fear anyone but Allah.
B. It is okay to show fear to your enemy

That is an example of a contradiction because the first statement "forbids" the latter. Hence the words, "not allowed".
Therefore, the Qur'an does not contradict because the words "not allowed" or anything synonymous to it is not mentioned.
Provide evidence for this. I see nothing of what you mention on this matter.

Al-Fatihah wrote: Rather, it says fear Allah only, which can refer to all things in general or based on condition. To know so you must refer to the context and the context shows that the verse before it refers defeating the enemy. Therefore, the verse is conditional and says to fear Allah only in order to defeat the enemy. Since it is conditional, there is no contradiction. That is call an exception.
The context shows that you should have more faith in allah when attacked by enemy (highlighted in blue). That is the context you tried to provide:
Those to whom hypocrites said, "Indeed, the people have gathered against you, so fear them." But it [merely] increased them in faith, and they said, "Sufficient for us is Allah ,and [He is] the best Disposer of affairs." (surah 3:173)
So if it is conditional to an attack, then clearly as these muslims grew in faith in imminent danger, so should other muslims bolster their faith during an attack. Otherwise to withdraw and to fear other mortals: Those to whom hypocrites said, "Indeed, the people have gathered against you, so fear them." would label you as a hypocrite.



So your interpolation makes no sense. It still contradicts.
Response: A contradiction is two things opposing each other, thereby saying it does no allow the other. The words "growing in faith" and "not allow" are not synonymous terms. Therefore, claiming a growth in faith is a contradiction fails. Try again.

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #38

Post by Al-Fatihah »

intheabyss wrote:
Al-Fatihah wrote: Rather, it says fear Allah only, which can refer to all things in general or based on condition.
Since you say that surah 3:173-175 can be taken in general. So should quran 16:106. It too then can generally mean you can lie to anyone for any reason.

Thank you for that.
Response: I said it can be taken in general according to context. The context does no refer to anything general but specifically refers to defeating the enemy. Therefore, it is conditional. Not general. Debunked. Try again.

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #39

Post by sawthelight »

Al-Fatihah wrote:Response: A contradiction is two things opposing each other, thereby saying it does no allow the other. The words "growing in faith" and "not allow" are not synonymous terms.
Yea no kidding. You prove my point. They are different terms thus a contradiction. You say it so yourself here.

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Re: Al-Taqiyya

Post #40

Post by sawthelight »

Al-Fatihah wrote:Response: I said it can be taken in general according to context. The context does no refer to anything general but specifically refers to defeating the enemy. Therefore, it is conditional. Not general. Debunked. Try again.
You said before it can be taken generally or conditionally:
Al-Fatihah wrote: Rather, it says fear Allah only, which can refer to all things in general or based on condition. (POST 34)
That means I can choose either or. Now you say it has to be "general in according to context". However, now you contradict yourself by saying before that it "can refer to all things in general." To paraphrase:

It can be taken as general or conditional VS. it can be taken as general in the condition.

I think a 5 year old would know those two statements you make contradict.

But I get it, you want to cover up falsehood. Since you want to switch stances again, okay I'll continue for sake of argument. You say it now should be "taken as general in context." Here's a news flash. I've doing that all along! I used the proper verses, with the proper titles, and stayed within the proper context to make my general point. Do you like that?

Keep trying.

Response responses.

Technically, since your religion is being under attack ideologically, I guess you can lie here too since allah permits the muslims to lie to any attacker (it is optional after-all as you've said). So I guess I don't need to believe your explanations anymore as they themselves are incoherent and contradicts themselves as you have demonstrated. And they are probably filled with lies as it seems likely the case.
Last edited by sawthelight on Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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