Bible - cruelty and violence

[Compassionist]

Please read this list of cruelty in the Bible. Is the Bible true? If it is true then why is God so cruel and violent? Doesn't God's cruelty make God evil and unworthy of praise and worship?

[Compassionist]

[Replying to post 1 by Compassionist]

The bible is only as true as one wants to accept it.
God exists only to those who want to accept it existing.
Proof doesn't exist otherwise.
Should God be praised? Depends on which God you're talking about as there seems to be at least 2 in the modern bible.
But it all boils down to the individual believer: some are kind and caring others are hateful and vindictive. The caring person's God isn't likely to be the same God of the hateful believer.
And vice versa.

Believe (or not) in what you want. Just keep it to yourself and in your own life.

That's interesting. Thank you for your views. How can the Bible be "as true as one wants to accept it" when it contradicts itself? Please see http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_book.html for a list of contradictions. You advised, "Believe (or not) in what you want. Just keep it to yourself and in your own life." Just to clarify: I am not trying to get anyone to leave their religion. Offline, I don't even discuss any religion. This forum is made for debating Christianity and religion so that's what I am doing. Thank you.

[Youkilledkenny]

[Replying to post 101 by Compassionist]

How can the Bible be "as true as one wants to accept it" when it contradicts itself?

For some people they don't care as long as it fits with their wants. Others choose to ignore them - citing 'interpretation' or 'God works in mysterious ways' or the like.

I am not trying to get anyone to leave their religion. Offline, I don't even discuss any religion. This forum is made for debating Christianity and religion so that's what I am doing.

I apologize if my comments came off as referring specifically to YOU. When I say 'you', unless I say it specifically, I'm using the term generally.
Hope that clears it up.

[ttruscott]

That is one of the most horrible, disgusting, pure evil belief systems anyone has ever described to me. I may have to leave the thread, because it is upsetting to me that I live in a world with people who believe these things.

Over-reactive shaming: exaggerating an argument, making it sound horrific in order to shame you into not making it, is a false method of debate used instead of arguing the merits of the premise or the logic of the conclusions. Please prove your status as a moral policeman to offset another logical fallacy: egocentric moral policing: having embraced some popular moral virtue, (such as the innocence of infants against the moral opinion of many who are accepted as moral arbiters), they declare themselves to be most moral, protecting the world from all vice but their own.

Your moral stance has no more validity than mine - and an appeal to the numbers who agree with you is an example for the fallacious argumentum ad populum, AKA Throwing their supporters at you...

[ttruscott]

No Christian will ever kill an innocent and God would never ask him to do that.

Peace to you all,

That's odd. Because the God of the Bible does just that. Read it, Ted.

Just because you have a different opinion about what some verses of the Bible might mean doesn't make you right. I contend your interpretation is wrong, no innocents are ever killed or even suffer (except Christ) and GOD has never asked a Christian to kill an innocent - your definitions of who is innocent is to my mind, wrong.

Please prove they are indeed innocent and that you are not just reacting to your genetic programming to be protective of small people with big heads and big eyes.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 1 by Compassionist]Believe (or not) in what you want. Just keep it to yourself and in your own life.

Curious - what is your authority to make this demand of Compassionist?

And does it work both ways, that is, do you support both creationism and evolutionary secular creation in schools?

[Youkilledkenny]

[Replying to post 105 by ttruscott]

Curious - what is your authority to make this demand of Compassionist?

'Thought this was clarified - apologies if not. It was not a demand of that poster, but was a comment made in general terms.

do you support both creationism and evolutionary secular creation in schools

That's an ambiguous statement that seems to seek a specific answer. Allow this:
Both can be taught in any private school and should be taught as an elective (AKA not required)
Both can be taught in any college as an elective and taught as such (AKA not science). Though if this happens, other culture's beliefs should be taught along side.
Both can be taught in any public school as an elective and taught as such (AKA not science). Though if this happens, other culture's beliefs should be taught along side.

[Compassionist]

[Replying to post 101 by Compassionist]

How can the Bible be "as true as one wants to accept it" when it contradicts itself?

For some people they don't care as long as it fits with their wants. Others choose to ignore them - citing 'interpretation' or 'God works in mysterious ways' or the like.

I am not trying to get anyone to leave their religion. Offline, I don't even discuss any religion. This forum is made for debating Christianity and religion so that's what I am doing.

I apologize if my comments came off as referring specifically to YOU. When I say 'you', unless I say it specifically, I'm using the term generally.
Hope that clears it up.

Thank you for the clarification.

[Compassionist]

Please read this list of cruelty in the Bible. Is the Bible true? If it is true then why is God so cruel and violent? Doesn't God's cruelty make God evil and unworthy of praise and worship?

I don't recall an instance in the Bible of God acting against good people to warrant the claim God is evil.

A good person can be quite violent and quite good if there are a lot of bad people around. John McClane in Die Hard is a good example of this. My point being that we need to analyse each action in that list to determine if God is evil or not in taking those actions.

Are you saying that the Amalekites, the Canaanites and the Medianites were bad people? Are you saying that everyone on Earth except for the occupants of Noah's ark were bad people? What evidence do you have to support this claim of 'badness'?

Let's look at God's actions in the following verses from Numbers (KJV):
21:4 And they journeyed from mount Hor by the way of the Red sea, to compass the land of Edom: and the soul of the people was much discouraged because of the way.
21:5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.
21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

Genesis 3:16 New International Version (NIV)

16 To the woman he said,

“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.�

How is God being empathetic and compassionate? God is not being even fair, never mind kind. If God really made Adam and Eve, why didn't God made Adam and Eve all-knowing and all-powerful? If they were all-knowing and all-powerful than the Devil could not deceive them or trick them or harm them. God is the worst creator in the history of existence (if God exists, which I doubt).

To punish trillions of women and babies like this for as long as humans exist is the hight of cruelty and injustice. Many women and babies have died during childbirth because the birth canal is so narrow and the complications that causes. Many other species don't have this problem. If God made it like this, as the Bible claims it did, then God is evil. If the Bible is true, then God is utterly evil. If the Bible is false (which it is) then God is totally imaginary. In either event, the Biblical God is unworthy of praise and worship. Please see https://www.evilbible.com and http://skepticsannotatedbible.com and and

[Purple Knight]

I have to say yes, based on what I know now. I can't think about someone who uses his omnipotence to turn people into salt because they looked at the wrong thing in any way but as a nasty little boy who gets his jollies from slaughtering ants in an anthill. Nor can I think omnipotence wouldn't turn anyone into that, any conceivable being... though this is a disturbing thought. If no one has ever put a check on your behaviour, there would be nothing to prevent you from being that little kid with powers from the Twilight Zone.

But do I know there's no perfectly good reason for every instance of what I now believe to be unjustifiable cruelty? No. No I don't know that. That needs to be said. Do I know that little Anthony can't grow up and somehow become merciful and compassionate? No. No I don't. I just know that he can't, by any process I know of.

Any harmful act may seem cruel from one perspective, but become absolutely justified when information is added. A man may appear to be a wanton murderer until it is revealed that the person he killed attacked him first. And no, I can't know there's no justification for the acts described in the Bible.

But what I do know is "you don't understand" is so often the refrain of the evil that I naturally hesitate to believe it.

If we don't hesitate to believe each instance of "well, you just don't understand" then we find ourselves suckered my every madman and we find ourselves in the role of the hand of evil, every time. There's no way around this: We must use our limited understanding. We can't just trust everyone who says they know best, and that we simply don't understand.

If there is an ultimate act of God's cruelty, it is to provide us with only limited understanding, thrust us into a world in which we must rely on it, and then expect us to ignore it and choose faith.

[Menotu]

Please read this list of cruelty in the Bible. Is the Bible true? If it is true then why is God so cruel and violent? Doesn't God's cruelty make God evil and unworthy of praise and worship?

To be fair, the Old Testament god (angry, vengeful, quick to kill and ask for killing) seems to be a lot different than the New Testament god (loving, caring, compassionate, forgiving).

If I had to pick one of the two to worship, it would be the NT god. Seems like the OT god is a...jerk (not the original descriptor I wanted, but due to rules and overly sensitive people, it will suffice).

Is the OT god worthy of worship? I guess if that's what you're looking for, then sure. And it sure seems many are looking for that.
Overall, while a god may exist, I don't believe it's anything like the bible describes - in either testament.