Does Divine foreknowledge negate free will?

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EduChris
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Does Divine foreknowledge negate free will?

Post #1

Post by EduChris »

In Islam, Allah is said to have taken his pen and begun to write. Each person's life has been scripted out in precise, exact detail before the world was created. Some Christians even have similar views of the God of the Bible (although I and many other Christians do not share that view).

Anyway, the question is, If God has scripted every detail of our lives before we were even born, can we still have free will?

I do not wish to debate whether we actually have free will, or whether free will is possible in our physical universe. The question at hand is simply whether free will--freedom of choice, freedom to do otherwise--makes any sense at all if our lives have been scripted by the Deity before we were born.

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ttruscott
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Post #61

Post by ttruscott »

jgh7 wrote: To me, free will is the natural state of our consciousness.
But we can see that some events that look like choices are not free but are programmed, that is, coerced by someone else causing us to dig a bit deeper. GOD claims to have predestined some to heaven, and to have predetermined things about our lives which make it rather impossible to reconcile that we chose those things from within ourselves without HIS prompting or even coercion.

As well, Christ claimed sinners are all enslaved to sin referring to the addictive like quality of sin that clouds our minds and overrides our decision making and choosing. Since being a sinner IS our natural human state, is it not implied that our decision making is overridden by sin and not free from coercion?
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

jgh7

Post #62

Post by jgh7 »

[Replying to ttruscott]

What events do you consider to be programmed or coerced by someone else? What has God coerced or prompted people to do that would have been impossible for them to choose of free will?

I'm willing to acknowledge that we have temptations to do things morally wrong or sinful. But so long as our minds are not actively tampered and controlled by some outside entity or foreign drug, then our minds are allowed to think and consider freely. That's how our consciousness works. It's free to ponder whatever it likes.

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Post #63

Post by ttruscott »

jgh7 wrote: [Replying to ttruscott] It's free to ponder whatever it likes.
imCo
Free to ponder is not the definition of free in free will. Free from coercion is better....and I do not agree that our decisions are free from the coercive taint of sin.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

jgh7

Post #64

Post by jgh7 »

[Replying to ttruscott]

If sin sways us, then so does love. What is different in saying that love sways us to do loving acts? Does this not negate our free will? We are coerced by desires to do good just the same as desires to do evil.

Sin is something that is internal to our nature just as love is. It makes no sense to me to say that our free will is negated due to internal desires such as sin.

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Post #65

Post by ttruscott »

jgh7 wrote: [Replying to ttruscott]

If sin sways us, then so does love. What is different in saying that love sways us to do loving acts? Does this not negate our free will? We are coerced by desires to do good just the same as desires to do evil.

Sin is something that is internal to our nature just as love is. It makes no sense to me to say that our free will is negated due to internal desires such as sin.
Let's try this:
(stuck in evil)
Rom 7:18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. 20 And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.…
OR
(stuck in love)
…18 I know that nothing evil lives in me, that is, in my spirit; for I have the desire to do what is evil, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the evil I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the good I do not want to do. 20 And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is righteousness living in me that does it.…

To me this exercise shows that sin and love are not interchangeable in GOD's system. The difference is that a free will that chooses to love is still free to chose to hate BUT WILL NOT because they love GOD and are committed to HIM in love to never sin...BUT, those who chose by their free will to be evil and once evil has filled them, cannot chose to love or to repent on their own without GOD's help (as per Rom 7:18-20) so if they rejected that help, scorning HIM as a false god and HIS help as a lie, they are stuck in evil eternally.

Love restrains our evil by our choosing to be committed to love and not hurt anyone. Evil constrains our good by sheer addiction to the pleasures and profits of sin growing to the strength that it is finally impossible to resist any more at all...every decision is completely selfish as it seeks to fulfill a lust. Few people are allowed to get this far into sin here on earth which is a good thing.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Post #66

Post by Freethinker43 »

Free Will? With the concept of foreknowledge, there can be no free will. We're just dangling like puppets on a string, playing a role, whether to salvation or damnation. Either " we choose damnation for ourselves" or " the Holy Spirit elects us to salvation." See how warped that " logic" is? We damn ourselves but God saves us. That leaves us no room for pleasing God by our own endeavor, but it absolves God by our choosing to damn ourselves. Wait, wut?

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Re: Does Divine foreknowledge negate free will?

Post #67

Post by amortalman »

[Replying to post 1 by EduChris]

If one believes that God has scripted one's life I see no conflict with free will. In such a case, God, by definition, sees all and has power over all.

Let me give an example.

You are tempted to commit adultery. You wrestle with it and are overcome with your desire and go ahead and commit the sin. Perhaps at the final judgment, you discover that God had decreed that you would commit adultery. But you have to admit that the choice was all yours. If you argue that the choice wasn't really all yours and that God had decreed it all along then you have a real problem with the theology you're believing.

This is why religion is indefensible. There are too many tangles to unravel. The only position that makes sense is that there is no god up there running the show.

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Post #68

Post by ttruscott »

Freethinker43 wrote: Free Will? With the concept of foreknowledge, there can be no free will. We're just dangling like puppets on a string, playing a role, whether to salvation or damnation. Either " we choose damnation for ourselves" or " the Holy Spirit elects us to salvation." See how warped that " logic" is? We damn ourselves but God saves us. That leaves us no room for pleasing God by our own endeavor, but it absolves God by our choosing to damn ourselves. Wait, wut?
Agreed but I believe that we had a free will which gave HIM HIS foreknowledge after we chose our fates and now we live predestined lives to redeem us and return our free will to us by a rebirth. Pre-earth our free will made us able to choose between being able to become holy and perfect and being able to become eternally evil.

After we chose to be sinners, either elect or reprobate, we live predetermined lives as humans with no free will since our wills are enslaved to sin.

If this explanation is not reality at least we know a reality where we can have the very necessary free will yet in which we also do not have any free will at all at another time is logically possible.

Then Either " we choose damnation for ourselves" or " the Holy Spirit elects us to salvation." becomes "We (some) choose damnation for ourselves" and "the Holy Spirit elected those who did not choose damnation to salvation."

The choice was to accept YHWH's claims to be our GOD and to accept HIS promise that putting our faith in HIM would bring us under HIS promise to elect us to be HIS Bride in heaven and to save us from any and all future sin by the work of HIS Son, the Christ...
OR
to reject HIS claims as the lies of a false GOD.

Accepting HIM = election.
Rejecting HIM = choosing our own damnation...both at the same time for the two groups.

These two groups are sent to earth lo live as per Matt 13:36-40.

PCE in short anyway...
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: Does Divine foreknowledge negate free will?

Post #69

Post by William »

EduChris wrote: In Islam, Allah is said to have taken his pen and begun to write. Each person's life has been scripted out in precise, exact detail before the world was created. Some Christians even have similar views of the God of the Bible (although I and many other Christians do not share that view).

Anyway, the question is, If God has scripted every detail of our lives before we were even born, can we still have free will?

I do not wish to debate whether we actually have free will, or whether free will is possible in our physical universe. The question at hand is simply whether free will--freedom of choice, freedom to do otherwise--makes any sense at all if our lives have been scripted by the Deity before we were born.

Yes.

The reason I think so is that even if our lives are scripted, only the god in question knows this. We in our positions have no idea and thus are living as if this is not the case.

If we are living as if this is the case, then we have to think that yes..."God Knows" and be content within that role (because what other choice do we have?) and in doing so, whatever happens is just part of Gods Will, which we are involved within.

Did we ask for this or otherwise volunteer? It could be that we did, but we don't have any recollection of this being the case.

If we did agree to it then chances are we did so at least fully informed that everything would work out alright as our best interests were taken into consideration or else we were too stupid to tell the difference.

Or perhaps we were shown enough to get us interested but were still not fully informed - took the gamble as it were.

But anyhow, from the perspective of the normal human being, we have no recollection of any such events and can use our free will to choose within the constructs of the position(s) we find ourselves within.

Part of that 'normal' is that we are involved within our spheres of influence and these play a huge part in how we react to life and what we believe or do not believe so we are shaped before we even get to use free will in any mature adult manner as it were.

And in that, if the God knows how we will choose, this will have something to do with it. The God knows how we will be influenced.

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Re: Does Divine foreknowledge negate free will?

Post #70

Post by amortalman »

[Replying to post 1 by EduChris]

We can get all tangled up in what appears to be a dilemma but isn't. I believe free will exists and is proven every time someone makes a choice. It happens hundreds of times a day in everyone's life. So what if a god somewhere has already ordained what those choices are? You, unaware of the power over you, remain free to choose. No matter what your choices are it turns out that they are exactly what this god has previously decided upon and ordained.

I remember a Bible commentator discussing free will vs. predestination. He believed that both exist without contradiction. He said to imagine a person about to enter heaven. Above the gates hangs a sign that says "Come, whosoever will."
The person enters through the gate and turns to look at the other side of the sign which reads "Chosen before the foundation of the world."

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