"Christianity is not about morality in pursuit of divine reward, but about gratitude in response to God's grace."
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Q: Discuss this quote.
Christianity - morality or grace
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Christianity - morality or grace
Post #1Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
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"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image ."
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"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image ."
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Re: Christianity - morality or grace
Post #2Such a good quote, it says it like it really is.Wootah wrote: "Christianity is not about morality in pursuit of divine reward, but about gratitude in response to God's grace."
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/rendez ... 1cf93a324d
Q: Discuss this quote.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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Post #3
Ephesians 2:
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
According to Paul we can't have contributed to our own salvation lest we would be able to boast that we had done it.
Personally I think this is pretty silly, but hey, Paul obviously took these ideas seriously.
However, I might point out that according to Matthew Jesus appears to contradict Paul:
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
So according to Jesus (so says Matthew), no one will be saved on grace alone, but only those who do the will of the Father shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
So Paul and Matthew (or Paul and Jesus) are clearly in contradiction with each other.
Paul says grace only, and Jesus clearly demands works, and in fact, suggests that grace will not be handed out otherwise.
So if Jesus is correct, then is "grace" truly "grace"? Or must it be earned through works? According to Matthew 7:21 it must be EARNED via works. And therefore it cannot be said to be a "Free Gift" as Paul proclaims.
So who should be believed? Paul? Or Jesus? Or should we say "Matthew" since Matthew is the one who claims that Jesus said this. Paul was not claiming to be quoting Jesus, but Matthew was.
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
According to Paul we can't have contributed to our own salvation lest we would be able to boast that we had done it.
Personally I think this is pretty silly, but hey, Paul obviously took these ideas seriously.
However, I might point out that according to Matthew Jesus appears to contradict Paul:
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
So according to Jesus (so says Matthew), no one will be saved on grace alone, but only those who do the will of the Father shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
So Paul and Matthew (or Paul and Jesus) are clearly in contradiction with each other.
Paul says grace only, and Jesus clearly demands works, and in fact, suggests that grace will not be handed out otherwise.
So if Jesus is correct, then is "grace" truly "grace"? Or must it be earned through works? According to Matthew 7:21 it must be EARNED via works. And therefore it cannot be said to be a "Free Gift" as Paul proclaims.
So who should be believed? Paul? Or Jesus? Or should we say "Matthew" since Matthew is the one who claims that Jesus said this. Paul was not claiming to be quoting Jesus, but Matthew was.
[center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
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Re: Christianity - morality or grace
Post #4It is about gratitude in response to God's grace, which will be expressed in living a transformed life of morality and godliness.Wootah wrote: "Christianity is not about morality in pursuit of divine reward, but about gratitude in response to God's grace."
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/rendez ... 1cf93a324d
Q: Discuss this quote.
Titus 2:
11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
12 It teaches us to say “No� to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,
13 while we wait for the blessed hope....
Post #5
It's about the concept that Christ's death and resurection meant more than forgiveness of sins but cleansing of the sinfull nature. The Bible never stated that Jesus came only to bear the penalty of sin but that he came to destroy sin.
1 John 3:8
The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.
Hebrews 10:1-3New International Version (NIV)
Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All
10 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins.
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Post #6
[Replying to post 3 by Divine Insight]
Why not believe both!
Jesus is speaking to false teachers in Matthew 7 and notes that a good tree produces good fruit is a statement on what we would see in the life of a Christ follower - not a works based requirement. When you think about it the tree has to be good to produce good fruit. Works can't come from a bad tree. So how can salvation be works based if one has to be a good tree to even begin producing good fruit?
Jesus then goes at length to say that some people doing works such as preaching or casting out demons will not go to heaven. Ie: the works didn't help them.
Line 21 is therefore saying that good trees are going to heaven.
Why not believe both!
Jesus is speaking to false teachers in Matthew 7 and notes that a good tree produces good fruit is a statement on what we would see in the life of a Christ follower - not a works based requirement. When you think about it the tree has to be good to produce good fruit. Works can't come from a bad tree. So how can salvation be works based if one has to be a good tree to even begin producing good fruit?
Jesus then goes at length to say that some people doing works such as preaching or casting out demons will not go to heaven. Ie: the works didn't help them.
Line 21 is therefore saying that good trees are going to heaven.
Watch out for false teachers. They come to you dressed as if they were sheep. On the inside they are hungry wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruit. Do men pick grapes from thorns? Do men pick figs from thistles? 17 It is true, every good tree has good fruit. Every bad tree has bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot have bad fruit. A bad tree cannot have good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not have good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So you will know them by their fruit. 21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will go into the holy nation of heaven. The one who does the things My Father in heaven wants him to do will go into the holy nation of heaven. 22 Many people will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not preach in Your Name? Did we not put out demons in Your Name? Did we not do many powerful works in Your Name?’ 23 Then I will say to them in plain words, ‘I never knew you. Go away from Me, you who do wrong!’
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image ."
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image ."
Post #7
[Replying to post 6 by Wootah]
Jesus is indicating that a good tree can only produce good fruit.
Jesus is indicating that a good tree can only produce good fruit.
1 John 3:8-10New International Version (NIV)
8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.
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Re: Christianity - morality or grace
Post #8Christianity is about BOTH. We accept Christ's sacrifice with gratitude, then we practice morality as God sees it, following Christ's example.Wootah wrote: "Christianity is not about morality in pursuit of divine reward, but about gratitude in response to God's grace."
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/rendez ... 1cf93a324d
Q: Discuss this quote.
IPeter 2:21
Matthew 5:16
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Post #9
Correct. Are we agreeing?postroad wrote: [Replying to post 6 by Wootah]
Jesus is indicating that a good tree can only produce good fruit.
1 John 3:8-10New International Version (NIV)
8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image ."
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image ."
- Wootah
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Re: Christianity - morality or grace
Post #10Christians should be moral of course but the quote is saying that morality is not about pursuing a divine reward.onewithhim wrote:Christianity is about BOTH. We accept Christ's sacrifice with gratitude, then we practice morality as God sees it, following Christ's example.Wootah wrote: "Christianity is not about morality in pursuit of divine reward, but about gratitude in response to God's grace."
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/rendez ... 1cf93a324d
Q: Discuss this quote.
IPeter 2:21
Matthew 5:16
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image ."
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image ."