Prophesy explained

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Willum
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Prophesy explained

Post #1

Post by Willum »

OK, here's a great conspiracy construct for y'all.

I am reading about Joan of Arc (La Purcelle), and how she fulfilled a prophesy for the French.
And I am naturally thinking: Sacra bleu, comment se peut-il?

So I put my magician's hat on, and think: Prophesy isn't all that astounding if you have the resources to make it happen.

Say you're a government, and all you have is a problem, time and religion. You have a priest make a prophesy that someone born under the eclipse in Bethlehem will be a great warrior for the house of Ptolemy. Or something.

All you need do if you are in the House of Ptolemy is look for someone born during an eclipse in Bethlehem, wait for a war, and provide wonders, men and armies to rally round.

Prophesy fulfilled.
The only real problem would be when your empire gets annihilated by Ozymandias or Nebuchadnezzar.

So, the question is, is this believable, and are there plausible examples?
Could Jesus be one?

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Post #2

Post by Zzyzx »

.
Another sure-fire way to have a 'prophesy fulfilled' is to write 'prophesy' AFTER the event. Any of us can 'predict' with 100% accuracy the past ten presidential elections if we write now and make it appear as though our prediction was made in 1950.

Documents available for most biblical 'prophecies' are copies of copies of copies that date from centuries after the claimed prophecies and 'fulfilling' events. That leaves a lot of room for 'pious fraud' or exaggerations or mistakes or modifications, etc.
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Post #3

Post by Willum »

[Replying to Zzyzx]

I am thinking, you don't even have to wait that long for the prophesy... You could telegraph it by only a few years and it will fall back into peoples memories enough that people will believe the prophesy has been around "forever."

Low tech. mind games...

Writing prophesy after the fact,like Rome did by over-writing Isaiah with the Caesars, is pretty effective.

It seems there are many ways to fulfill a prophesy insincerely...

But, and maybe I should have used an example of Joan... IF France made a prophecy about a maiden from Orleons, and then created and sustained her, it would answer many perplexing questions.

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Re: Prophesy explained

Post #4

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Willum wrote: Prophesy isn't all that astounding if you have the resources to make it happen.

So, the question is, is this believable, and are there plausible examples?
Could Jesus be one?
The "problem " is that with Jesus there were so many Messianic Prophetic details that could not be manipulated.

The Messiah had to be born at a particular time at a particular place now a couple can have sexual intercourse to try and time the birth of their child, but they still only have a 50/50 chance of having a boy. Since it has to be at a particlarification time (read: year) and a woman cannot have more than one baby a year (in the absence of twins) that couple has but one chance of even getting to the "starting block" Now what happens to that number if we figure in that that couple had to be of a particular tribe and a particular family line? Does it stay at 50 or does it go down?

Now what are the chances that boy would grow up to be an outstanding public speaker despite being born of a poor family without formal education? 100 to one? 1000 to one.

Sure he could speak in a way to get himself arrested, but could he manipulate his enemies to get arrest, tried and convicted on a particular night - in a process that happened to be totally illegal. What are the chances of that thousands to one boy growing up and dying these precise circumstances? Ten thousand to one? More? Less?

And what happens to that 10,000 to one when you factor in what those that had no knowledge or regard for scripture, would do with the body - for example when it was common practice to break the legs of criminals being tortured, to hasten death, what are the chances that that same individual would not have any bones of his body broken? Do we know go from ten thousand to one to 100,000 to one?

At what point does an unbiased observer go from impossible to prophesy ?


Further reading
http://wol.jw.org/fr/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102005134
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102014749

Video Presentation: Gerrit Lösch: Fortified by "the Prophetic Word" [skip to 14"30]
http://tv.jw.org/#en/video/VODStudio/pu ... 03_1_VIDEO




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INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: Prophesy explained

Post #5

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]
The "problem " is that with Jesus there were so many Messianic Prophetic details that could not be manipulated.
Okay, do go on...
The Messiah had to be born at a particular time at a particular place
Is there some way to check Jesus was actually from the place prophesied for the Messiah, and born at the time prophesied for the Messiah?
Last I looked, the only things we have to go on are the religious gospels promoting him as the Messiah.
Now what happens to that number if we figure in that that couple had to be of a particular tribe and a particular family line? Does it stay at 50 or does it go down?
How do we know that the couple (Mary and Joseph) in question were from the particular tribe and family line? You seem to just take it for granted.
Now what are the chances that boy would grow up to be an outstanding public speaker despite being born of a poor family without formal education? 100 to one? 1000 to one.
Oratorical skills are something that are only granted to a divine few then? There are quite a few people throughout history who came from poor backgrounds, had little to no education and yet were fantastic speakers. Adolf Hitler comes to mind.
but could he manipulate his enemies to get arrest, tried and convicted on a particular night - in a process that happened to be totally illegal. What are the chances of that thousands to one boy growing up and dying these precise circumstances? Ten thousand to one? More? Less?
Other than the religious texts claiming that this happened, where else can we find evidence of the trial and crucifixion?
for example when it was common practice to break the legs of criminals being tortured, to hasten death, what are the chances that that same individual would not have any bones of his body broken? Do we know go from ten thousand to one to 100,000 to one?
How do we know Jesus's bones weren't in fact broken, other than from the religious texts that are, again, claiming this to be a fulfilment of prophecy?
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Re: Prophesy explained

Post #6

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

I rather think you are missing the point of the OP:

The year is 63 BC and Rome, a nation that used the usurpation of religion as a tool of war, and in their planning room they examine the prophecy and religion of Palestine.

They discover all about the saviour prophesy and desire to create one that supports the pagan empire of Rome, with it's Jovian deity empowering its Caesars.

They begin orchestrating all the prophesy within their power. They look for someone of the line of David (this is easy to manufacture, because Nebuchadnezzar exterminated the line, and the Jews of the time want that hope). The tribe of Judah is very easy to accomplish. He was Jesus of Nazareth, paradoxically born in Bethlehem.

No-one was born of a virgin - I think it's been done to death that the word used is synonymous "young woman." In any case, it may have been Mary with the Roman soldier, Panthera, whose mission was to seduce a Jewish girl and shame her into denying it. But they select Mary, regardless. She may have been one of several hundred who was amenable, once she agreed, there was no going back, it is a death sentence.

I am not sure where he was declared to be his son, except by a book penned 250 years later by a Roman Emperor.

"Not believed in..." Most sane men wouldn't believe the Jesus story - hardly grounds for a prophesy.

Betrayed, most political or religious figures suffer betrayal. Easy for a ruling power to manipulate.
30 pieces of silver, typical wage to pay for a servant, not much f a prophesy, it has to be something, and if you can control it, then you can fulfill it.

Silent before accusers - err, umm, means nothing that I can see, except of course, if it were a Roman manipulation, he'd be playing a part.

Who cast lots for his garments? Romans, and Romans again fulfilling the prophesy.
Most criminals, particularly known ones, are mocked.
Actually, there are versions where his bones are broken... his hip to fulfill the "suffering servant."
Buried with the rich? Who controlled where he was buried?

So, you see, it is like a magic trick, if you have the time, knowledge and resources, a prophesy is worth it to fulfill. You get a beacon for the world. In this Jesus was very successful. But Jesus was a prophesy easily fulfilled by Rome. Many Jews did not fall for it, they remained the Roman puppet Pharisee, many did, they became Christians.

Most important about Jesus are his temporally realizable goals: Obey Rome and pay its taxes. This is simply another fact added to the heap of Rome creating a prophesy for its own ends.

You notice, with this prophesy, "all roads lead to Rome." They are the agents of its fulfillment more than any other.

Why were Roman agents instrumental in fulfilling a Middle-Eastern prophesy? The answer is self-evident.

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Post #7

Post by Justin108 »

Born of the tribe of Judah
- considering that your support for this is Luke 3:23-33, a text that is directly contradicted by Matthew 1:1-17, I wonder which of the two are accurate (if either)
- The genealogy in Luke extends all the way back to Adam and includes Noah. There is no evidence that either of these characters even existed. A genealogy containing fictional characters cannot be reliable
- In order to use Luke's genealogy as evidence, you will therefore first have to prove that Noah and Adam were literal people. If they were merely fictional characters, the entire genealogy is unreliable

Born of a virgin
- There is absolutely no evidence for this

Descended from King David
- As mentioned before, as Matthew contradicts Luke regarding Jesus' genealogy, it's questionable which one is accurate (if either)

Declared by Jehovah to be his Son
- There is absolutely no evidence for this

Not believed in
- That's hardly a prophecy. Ironically, this prophecy is inevitably true for every false Messiah. The fact that you do not believe any of the other possible Messiah's were the true Messiah means that every one of these false Messiah's fulfill this prophecy. It's harder to not fulfill this prophecy than it is to fulfill it

Entered Jerusalem riding a donkey
- This prophecy was well known and could easily have been achieved by anyone. If I wanted to make people believe I was the Messiah, what would have stopped me from just buying a donkey and riding into Jerusalem with it? The prophecy would’ve been much more impressive had it been placed further out of human control.

Betrayed by a close associate
- How is Psalm 41:9 a prophecy? The author of Psalm 41 was clearly talking about his own struggles.

Psalm 41:9 "Even my close friend, someone I trusted, one who shared my bread, has turned against me."

Unless you mean to argue that Jesus himself wrote Psalm 41?

In Psalm 41:4, we read the author saying “Have mercy on me, Lord; heal me, for I have sinned against you.� Did Jesus sin against God? No. So clearly Psalm 41 was not about the Messiah

Betrayed for 30 silver pieces
- Zechariah 11 is very open to interpretation. A prophecy hidden in a text with a thousand possible meanings is not much of a prophecy. If you believe in prophecies hidden in layers of metaphors and interpretations then you would have to consider Nostradamus a prophet as well

Silent before his accusers
- As with the donkey before, fulfilling this prophecy was entirely in Jesus' control. If I were in Jesus' position and I wanted to go down history as the Messiah, I'd have kept silent too

Lots cast for his garments
- Just as with Psalm 41 before, Psalm 22 was not a prophecy. Unless, again, you would consider Jesus to be the author of Psalm 22 as the author was clearly talking about his own struggles.

Psalm 22:6 "But I am a worm and not a man"
- was Jesus a worm? (metaphorically speaking of course) Wasn't Jesus a sinless man? Why would Psalm 22 speak so badly of Jesus if this was about him?

Mocked while on the stake
- See above regarding Psalm 22
- Psalm 22:7 - 8 doesn't even mention a stake

None of his bones broken
Psalm 34:19 - 20 "The righteous person may have many troubles, but the Lord delivers him from them all; he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken."

In the context of Psalm 34, the author clearly meant that God will protect the righteous person and protect all his bones from breaking. As with all the Psalms you keep listing, Psalm 34 was not a prophecy about the Messiah.

Buried with the rich
- I think this may well be the only prophecy Jesus actually fulfilled. But was Jesus unique in this prophecy at all? How many people were buried with the rich?

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Post #8

Post by Willum »

So, interestingly, Christian prophesies seem to be the only ones that do not get fulfilled, in general, Jeanne being an exception. Or that they are fulfilled by Roman Emperors, such as the saviour prophesies of Isaiah.

Three possible reasons of course.
1. Random chance. Say stuff about something with enough guesses and eventually someone will be right a few times.
2. There was some substance to them.
3. Broad or vagueness to the replies.

Of course we really don't know about the power of pagan prophesy, only a few known cases survive, because Roman Christianity hunted this knowledge down and destroyed it.

Odd that.

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