The whole kit'n kaboodle..

[Elijah John]

Is it necessary to believe all of the claims of the Church and Bible in order to be saved, including:

-The Virgin Birth story,
-The miracle tales
-The eternal pre-existence of Jesus
-Jesus membership in the Trinity as the "2nd Person"?
-Jesus Divinity?
-The infalliblity of the Bible?

If not, what is the criteria for salvation or to "inherit eternal life"?

Please support your arguments, preferably with Scripture.

[Checkpoint]

Is it necessary to believe all of the claims of the Church and Bible in order to be saved, including:

-The Virgin Birth story,
-The miracle tales
-The eternal pre-existence of Jesus
-Jesus membership in the Trinity as the "2nd Person"?
-Jesus Divinity?
-The infalliblity of the Bible?

If not, what is the criteria for salvation or to "inherit eternal life"?

Please support your arguments, preferably with Scripture.

I'm not sure it comes down to any such specifics.

What saves is faith active in love.

What kind of faith?

Hebrews 11:

1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
2 For by it the people of old received their commendation.
6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him.

What kind of love?

Matthew 25:

31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.

34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’

37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’

40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,f you did it to me.’

[Elijah John]

Is it necessary to believe all of the claims of the Church and Bible in order to be saved, including:

-The Virgin Birth story,
-The miracle tales
-The eternal pre-existence of Jesus
-Jesus membership in the Trinity as the "2nd Person"?
-Jesus Divinity?
-The infalliblity of the Bible?

If not, what is the criteria for salvation or to "inherit eternal life"?

Please support your arguments, preferably with Scripture.

I'm not sure it comes down to any such specifics.

What saves is faith active in love.

What kind of faith?

Hebrews 11:

1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
2 For by it the people of old received their commendation.
6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him.

What kind of love?

Matthew 25:

31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.

34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’

37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’

40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,f you did it to me.’

Seems this is one of those rare occasions that we find ourselves in agreement. Would it be fair to say it comes down to "love of God and neighbor" as Jesus taught?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 3 by Elijah John]

Seems this is one of those rare occasions that we find ourselves in agreement. Would it be fair to say it comes down to "love of God and neighbor" as Jesus taught?

Hard to say; yes and no, I guess.

Just what is "love of God", and just what is "love of neighbor"?

When the question was asked, "who is my neighbor?", the answer given was probably far from what was expected, as was the love that was described.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 3 by Elijah John]

Seems this is one of those rare occasions that we find ourselves in agreement. Would it be fair to say it comes down to "love of God and neighbor" as Jesus taught?

Hard to say; yes and no, I guess.

Just what is "love of God", and just what is "love of neighbor"?

When the question was asked, "who is my neighbor?", the answer given was probably far from what was expected, as was the love that was described.

I think Love of God is summarized by the first three Commandments, (four for Jews), and love of neighbor by the remaining seven or six.

And also by belief in, and devotion to God and His ways. Being thankful to him.

Or, as Jesus and Hillel suggest, we love God by loving our neighbor, and "Neighbor" includes the "Sammaritan" as well, as Jesus teaches.

[Divine Insight]

Is it necessary to believe all of the claims of the Church and Bible in order to be saved, including:

-The Virgin Birth story,
-The miracle tales
-The eternal pre-existence of Jesus
-Jesus membership in the Trinity as the "2nd Person"?
-Jesus Divinity?
-The infalliblity of the Bible?

If not, what is the criteria for salvation or to "inherit eternal life"?

Please support your arguments, preferably with Scripture.

I believe that it is reasonable to comment on "theologies" regardless of whether the academic believes in the "theology" or not. In other words, the doctrine clearly still exists to be commented on whether its contents are believed or considered to be nothing more than cultural mythology.

From this academic perspective, I would suggest that just looking at the Christian New Testament (i.e. the foundation doctrines of the Christian theology), it appears to me that the whole kit'n kaboodle must be taken as equally valid doctrine. Otherwise what would be the point in accepting only parts of these stories whilst rejecting the rest, especially when they have been attributed to "singular authors" in the case of each "book".

In other words, supposedly a man named Mark wrote the entire book of Mark (although the ending of the book of Mark as been recognized to have been added later)

The book of Matthew has been attributed to the single author Matthew.

The Book of Luke of a single person named Luke, and the book of John to a specific man named John.

Whether there is any truth to the above I cannot say, but that's the idea behind these texts.

Therefore what sense would it make to suggest that these authors are either fibbing, or grossly mistaken, about some things, whilst being trustworthy to have gotten some other parts dependably correct?

That approach just doesn't make any sense to me.

So I would conclude that it's either believe the whole kit'n kaboodle, or why bother with any of it?

You ask:

If not, what is the criteria for salvation or to "inherit eternal life"?

This question makes absolutely no sense to me at all.

Why should we believe that there is any such thing as "salvation" required, or that any "eternal life" is being offered?

Where do these ideas come from if not from these stories.

Therefore, it seems to me that it truly is "All or Nothing". You either believe the whole shebang, or there truly isn't any rational reason to believe any of it.

And since I personally don't believe the whole shebang, I see not reason to believe any of it.

I see no reason to believe that some God is out to damn me if I don't meet some "criteria" for salvation thus "earning" me a so-called "Free Gift" of eternal life.

That's already an oxymoron right there. If I have to meet some criteria in order to "earn" the salvation, then it can hardly be said to be a "free gift".

The whole thing seems rather self-contradictory to me.

Not to mention that this whole kit'n kaboodle of the New Testament actually requires believing in the whole kit'n kaboodle of the Old Testament as well. I see no reason to believe the Old Testament in the first place. It too contains countless extreme self-contradictions.

So the whole idea that some God will damn us to death (or far worse) if we fail to meet the "criteria" for salvation which is supposed to be a "free gift" that we must "earn" by meeting a specific "criteria" seems utterly absurd to me.

~~~~~

And I'll go one step further and ask, "What sense would it make for a Creator God to demand that we must meet some criteria for salvation whilst simultaneously leaving that criteria extremely ill-defined and unclear?"

I suggest that this makes no sense at all, yet this is precisely what we find. Even the countless people who would like for this religious paradigm to be true cannot agree on precisely what the criteria for salvation actually is. In fact, they create extreme division between themselves over this very question to the point of creating disagreeing cults of this religion that basically bash each other to a far greater extent that even the most ambitious anti-theists can dream of.

I would suggest that if there actually existed a genuine God who truly cared about humans and had eternal life to offer them he would make it crystal clear to them without ambiguity what they would need to do to qualify for this prize.

But clearly that is not the case with the Christian religion. Even Christians are at each others throats in hostile disagreement over what is required to be saved from damnation in this religion.

I think that speaks volumes right there.

But yeah, for me, it has to be all or nothing, and I see no reason to accept all of it so there's far more likely to be nothing to it at all.

We'll probably just die when we die like the dead mice I just tossed out of the traps I set in my kitchen last night.

I hate to put it so bluntly, but that's probably more likely where will end up. Just as compost or ashes like everything else.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

the secret of salvation is in knowing you can't make a ducks legs longer without some discomfort to the duck.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

the secret of salvation is in knowing you can't make a ducks legs longer without some discomfort to the duck.

Meaning??