Are there any simulations which explain how the flood described in the Book of Genesis could have actually occurred? Are any of these simulations consistent with what is known about geology, meteorology, chemistry, physics, biology, archeology, and cosmology?KingandPriest wrote:There are simulations which explain how the flood in Genesis could have occurred. Many reject the calculations because of the source, rather than the math and simulations themselves. If the math is wrong, that is one thing, but if the math is correct but rejected because it is based on a biblical theory, this is an inconsistent approach to analyzing information.
Explain the Flood.
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Explain the Flood.
Post #1Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
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Re: Explain the Flood.
Post #61[Replying to agnosticatheist]
This thread has discussed several scientific arguments against the flood myth which I completely agree with. A global flood covering the entire land surface of the earth to submerge the highest mountains, and killing every living thing not in a large boat, and happening only 4500 years ago or so (a common extrapolated data, but even 10,000 years ago), clearly did not happen. The geological evidence for such an event would be very clear, and there is virtually none. And the distribution of species, genetic variation within species, etc. could not possibly have developed in such a short time frame starting from 8 humans and a group of animals originating in one spot on earth (the landing spot of the ark).
But in addition to these issues which have already been discussed here, do people who believe in the flood myth ignore the other aspects of the story which are equally unbelievable, and cast them aside as irrelevant? For example, Noah himself was supposedly 600 years old when he was commanded to build the ark (having fathered his first child at a mere 500 years old, presumably via a wife of similar age), and lived another 350 years after the flood to die at 950! Can any educated person believe a story (global flood or otherwise) told by the same writers who claim anatomically modern humans were routinely living to 900+ years old. It seems to me this sort of anomaly (impossibly long life times) has to be taken into account as far as the credibility of such a story, and in attempts to scientifically explain it.
This thread has discussed several scientific arguments against the flood myth which I completely agree with. A global flood covering the entire land surface of the earth to submerge the highest mountains, and killing every living thing not in a large boat, and happening only 4500 years ago or so (a common extrapolated data, but even 10,000 years ago), clearly did not happen. The geological evidence for such an event would be very clear, and there is virtually none. And the distribution of species, genetic variation within species, etc. could not possibly have developed in such a short time frame starting from 8 humans and a group of animals originating in one spot on earth (the landing spot of the ark).
But in addition to these issues which have already been discussed here, do people who believe in the flood myth ignore the other aspects of the story which are equally unbelievable, and cast them aside as irrelevant? For example, Noah himself was supposedly 600 years old when he was commanded to build the ark (having fathered his first child at a mere 500 years old, presumably via a wife of similar age), and lived another 350 years after the flood to die at 950! Can any educated person believe a story (global flood or otherwise) told by the same writers who claim anatomically modern humans were routinely living to 900+ years old. It seems to me this sort of anomaly (impossibly long life times) has to be taken into account as far as the credibility of such a story, and in attempts to scientifically explain it.
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Re: Explain the Flood.
Post #62There was never a global flood. There were regional floods, such as the Black Sea that was flooded when the Mediterranean Sea spilled over the Bosphorus Strait around 5,600 BCE. The floor of the Black Sea shows signs of an ancient civilization there. That was discovered by Robert Ballard, an explorer and oceanographer that discovered the Titanic, the Bismarck, the USS Yorktown and JFK's PT-109 boat.McCulloch wrote: Are there any simulations which explain how the flood described in the Book of Genesis could have actually occurred? Are any of these simulations consistent with what is known about geology, meteorology, chemistry, physics, biology, archeology, and cosmology?
When you sit on a large body of water such as an ocean or one of the Great Lakes, the horizon is only a few miles in any direction because of the curvature of the Earth. To you, it would seem that the "whole world" was under water. I imagine that any ancient mariner would experience that sensation.
Some will say that practically every ancient civilization in the world has a flood story, and then arbitrarily apply that as evidence of a global flood. The problem is that ancient civilizations had to live near the water in order to survive. It is only natural that at some point, there would be a flood in those areas. New Orleans, USA has been flooded numerous times in recent history, but that does not mean that the waters covered North Dakota.
With the historical stuff set aside, let's take a look at the scientific.
The temperature atop the highest mountain above sea level (Everest) is a warm -2* F in the summer. In the winter, that can dip to -100+ F because of the wind chill. Water freezes at +32* F. Noah and company would have been frozen in a glacier, but that is not what is written.
All of the marsupial mammals (pouch bearing) are native to Australia. How did they all get there? The theory is some land bridge long vanished, but that does not explain how all the marsupials decided to migrate there. Did they take a vote at the local Union of Pouch Bearing Mammals?
What did the predators eat after coming off the Ark? If there were only two of each animal, and predators eat other animals, how did those species continue to procreate after becoming a meal?
How did Noah and a handful of people take care of all those animals for 6 months? That would include feeding, scooping poop, etc. Logistically, it does not add up.
The Karroo Formation in Africa contains billions of animal fossils. If all of those animals were alive at the same time prior to Noah's global flood, then that means that an estimated 2,100 animals lived per square acre. Needless to say, that is a tad bit on the crowded side.
One last bit of information...
The Epic of Gilgamesh is a Sumerian story that contains a flood narrative. It matches the Noah story on 18 major points. The interesting thing is that pieces of the story have been found on clay tablets dating back to 2,100 BCE, which is 600 years prior to the Noah flood. It is the older of the two nearly identical stories, which means that the Noah version was merely a copy of what came before. Myths and legends have a tendency to do that.
My hypothesis is that the Black Sea flood was the catalyst for those flood stories.
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Post #63
'And Noah began to be a farmer, and he planted a vineyard. 21 Then he drank of the wine and was drunk, and became uncovered in his tent....'
'Make yourself an ark of gopherwood; make rooms in the ark, and cover it inside and outside with pitch.'
. my explanation-
. . . . tent- something someone lives in who doesn't know how to build houses (or boats);
. . . .300 x 50 x 30 cubits- measurements describing a flat object;
. . . . themselves- who people that can't be forgiven but don' t know it (blasphemer) are talking to when they think they're talking to god;
. . . . boat- object used to carry a person across water; . barge- flatter object used to carry people across water; .. bark and pitch (mud) - what someone without tools may have used to build a boat;... bark minus b- ark, analogy, non physical thing;
. . . . flood- what noah or someone may have wished would happen, possibly felt mistreated, also possibly clues to the sodom and gomorrah and garden of eden stories being inaccurate;
'Make yourself an ark of gopherwood; make rooms in the ark, and cover it inside and outside with pitch.'
. my explanation-
. . . . tent- something someone lives in who doesn't know how to build houses (or boats);
. . . .300 x 50 x 30 cubits- measurements describing a flat object;
. . . . themselves- who people that can't be forgiven but don' t know it (blasphemer) are talking to when they think they're talking to god;
. . . . boat- object used to carry a person across water; . barge- flatter object used to carry people across water; .. bark and pitch (mud) - what someone without tools may have used to build a boat;... bark minus b- ark, analogy, non physical thing;
. . . . flood- what noah or someone may have wished would happen, possibly felt mistreated, also possibly clues to the sodom and gomorrah and garden of eden stories being inaccurate;
Re: Explain the Flood.
Post #64[Replying to post 61 by American Deist]
Evidence of a drastic change are mammoths and rhinoceroses have been found in different parts of the earth in Siberian and Alaskan ice.In fact, some were found with food undigested in their stomachs or still unchewed in their teeth, indicating that they died suddenly. It is estimated, from the trade in ivory tusks, that bones of tens of thousands of such mammoths have been found.
Evidence of a drastic change are mammoths and rhinoceroses have been found in different parts of the earth in Siberian and Alaskan ice.In fact, some were found with food undigested in their stomachs or still unchewed in their teeth, indicating that they died suddenly. It is estimated, from the trade in ivory tusks, that bones of tens of thousands of such mammoths have been found.
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Re: Explain the Flood.
Post #65How can you tell it is not a rewriting of the story to correct mistakes and tell it right?American Deist wrote: It is the older of the two nearly identical stories, which means that the Noah version was merely a copy of what came before.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
Re: Explain the Flood.
Post #66What is the point you are trying to make?Olla wrote: [Replying to post 61 by American Deist]
Evidence of a drastic change are mammoths and rhinoceroses have been found in different parts of the earth in Siberian and Alaskan ice.In fact, some were found with food undigested in their stomachs or still unchewed in their teeth, indicating that they died suddenly. It is estimated, from the trade in ivory tusks, that bones of tens of thousands of such mammoths have been found.
Re: Explain the Flood.
Post #67Because they didn't correct the mistakes. They took a popular myth and changed the names of the characters, but all the mistakes are still there.ttruscott wrote:How can you tell it is not a rewriting of the story to correct mistakes and tell it right?American Deist wrote: It is the older of the two nearly identical stories, which means that the Noah version was merely a copy of what came before.
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Re: Explain the Flood.
Post #68Since they didn't all die at the same time but over thousands of years, and almost none of them are buried in sediment but instead found in places like bogs and sinkholes, your attempted point is rather moot.Olla wrote: [Replying to post 61 by American Deist]
Evidence of a drastic change are mammoths and rhinoceroses have been found in different parts of the earth in Siberian and Alaskan ice.In fact, some were found with food undigested in their stomachs or still unchewed in their teeth, indicating that they died suddenly. It is estimated, from the trade in ivory tusks, that bones of tens of thousands of such mammoths have been found.
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Re: Explain the Flood.
Post #69Not if every difference was a correction...Rufus21 wrote: Because they didn't correct the mistakes. They took a popular myth and changed the names of the characters, but all the mistakes are still there.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
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Re: Explain the Flood.
Post #70McCulloch wrote:Are there any simulations which explain how the flood described in the Book of Genesis could have actually occurred? Are any of these simulations consistent with what is known about geology, meteorology, chemistry, physics, biology, archeology, and cosmology?KingandPriest wrote:There are simulations which explain how the flood in Genesis could have occurred. Many reject the calculations because of the source, rather than the math and simulations themselves. If the math is wrong, that is one thing, but if the math is correct but rejected because it is based on a biblical theory, this is an inconsistent approach to analyzing information.
Doing a quick Google - The Hydroplate Theory
I don't see how it is "yet another example of the supernatural engineering observed throughout the bible." [8:17 in the video] as the theory itself is simply describing a natural enough event.
If anything, it shows yet again how natural events are consigned to being sourced with an idea of a supernatural GOD separate from the the universe but apparently 'somehow' still able to cause natural events to happen, as well as assigning such events as being punishment by the GOD because of human behavior and developing a story around the event to explain it that way.