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Does God have to be fair and just to be a God?
 
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sawthelight Offline
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:28 pm  Does God have to be fair and just to be a God? Reply

I know I am going to be condemned for posting this but I think it is a fair question.

Do people think that God must be fair and just for him to exist?

If we look at our history books that date back to the inception of writing there is nothing but war plagued throughout the entire timeline up to now.

Most recent colonizing from the British and French motherlands sent their people to take over foreign land that involved displacing many Aboriginals by killing, deceiving, giving swine flu, etc.

Could our founding forefathers be considered as thieves for taking what was not theirs initially?

I mean I enjoy the freedoms we have here in Canada and do like the set up of the system overall. It would be hard to just hand over this land back to all Native people and watch them boot us non-Aboriginals out of Canada.

However this is something I have thought about and pondered if it is the right thing to do. What would happen if US and Canada gave their land back to the First Nations, to correct the first transgression of theft? Is it possible to give them some chunk of land back or would we have to correct it all?

Does this mean that God is with Canada and the US as affirmed by their national anthem (O'Canada) and the currency (In God We Trust)? Does this mean that God is unjust or unfair? or is it the opposite? or is God not involved at all whatsoever?
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DanieltheDragon Offline
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:38 am  Re: Does God have to be fair and just to be a God? Reply

[Replying to post 1 by sawthelight]

It is a trait requisite of the character God as described in the bible. It is not a trait requisite of a deity.
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sawthelight Offline
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:13 am  Re: Does God have to be fair and just to be a God? Reply

[Replying to post 2 by DanieltheDragon]

That is a good point. I would also subscribe to that view as well.

Sometimes it can be confusing to have all these random thoughts so bouncing it back off others helps me align things into order.

Yes what you say makes absolute sense.

Although there are people who do not believe in a deity at all; of course this is all self-evident in this forum and in many others.

The god of the Bible was just a political tool to invade land and to justify atrocities committed in the god's name.

But it also begs the question: wouldn't this have all happened anyways if it wasn't Europe who rose to power first?

What if Africa had Europe's level of power at the time? what's to stop them from conquering foreign land as well? There is history all over the world of tribes who were at war with each other constantly whether the tribes were Native, Cro-magnum, Chinese, New-Guinean, etc. It seems like this would of happened regardless. It seems to be our human nature to conquer.
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:50 pm   Reply

Logically to be perfectly complete either goodness or evil, the absence of the other is imperative since they are opposites. Thus GOD must be one or the other. IF HE is good, then HE must be fair and just.
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DanieltheDragon Offline
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:01 am   Reply

ttruscott wrote:

Logically to be perfectly complete either goodness or evil, the absence of the other is imperative since they are opposites. Thus GOD must be one or the other. IF HE is good, then HE must be fair and just.

Depends on what you mean by complete. I would contend God can't be perfectly complete without both. Think of Yin yang concepts.
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sawthelight Offline
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:18 am   Reply

ttruscott wrote:
Logically to be perfectly complete either goodness or evil, the absence of the other is imperative since they are opposites. Thus GOD must be one or the other. IF HE is good, then HE must be fair and just.


So would that translate into the Holy Spirit as being "good" since God allowed conquering of nations to occur? Surely the Spirit was with all the conquerors during war as it has been there since the beginning of time.

Is it "good" to conquer then?
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:19 am   Reply

If god exists is should be above all human faults and failings. The god of the Bible is worse than any human who has ever existed. One hopes it is the fictional character I believe it to be.
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:48 pm  Re: Does God have to be fair and just to be a God? Reply

sawthelight wrote:

I know I am going to be condemned for posting this but I think it is a fair question.

Do people think that God must be fair and just for him to exist?


No. The concept of a Big Sky Daddy that welcomes you with open arms, is a human construct.
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:18 pm  Re: Does God have to be fair and just to be a God? Reply

[quote="sawthelight"]
Quote:
I know I am going to be condemned for posting this but I think it is a fair question.

Do people think that God must be fair and just for him to exist?


Generally - yes. That is the hope/belief/faith.
Apart from that I do not think it is necessary for any GOD to exist because they are good or evil.

All a GOD needs is self consciousness and superhuman abilities. By superhuman I do not mean supernatural.

Quote:
If we look at our history books that date back to the inception of writing there is nothing but war plagued throughout the entire timeline up to now.


Well there are still pockets of peace, but yes - war sems to always be fighting against peace.

Quote:
Most recent colonizing from the British and French motherlands sent their people to take over foreign land that involved displacing many Aboriginals by killing, deceiving, giving swine flu, etc.


True enough. History hasn't hidden that fact.

Quote:
Could our founding forefathers be considered as thieves for taking what was not theirs initially?


Hard to say. If the indigenous folk had the opinion that the land did not belong to anyone but was to be cared for then someone taking the land might not have been stealing it because no one owned it to begin with.

So, in that - it was more raping and killing the land and its occupants.

Quote:
I mean I enjoy the freedoms we have here in Canada and do like the set up of the system overall. It would be hard to just hand over this land back to all Native people and watch them boot us non-Aboriginals out of Canada.


Why do you think they would do that if they were given the land back?

Quote:
However this is something I have thought about and pondered if it is the right thing to do. What would happen if US and Canada gave their land back to the First Nations, to correct the first transgression of theft? Is it possible to give them some chunk of land back or would we have to correct it all?


Nowadays it would be different. We understand far better the concept of caring for the land and how no one can really own the land and do with it what they will.

Quote:
Does this mean that God is with Canada and the US as affirmed by their national anthem (O'Canada) and the currency (In God We Trust)? Does this mean that God is unjust or unfair? or is it the opposite? or is God not involved at all whatsoever?


Perhaps look at it another way?

IF history did not go the way it did,
THEN would we be as advanced in science as we are or would we still be stuck in the old ways - and have superstitious beliefs which kept us from pushing the boundaries of the potential of knowledge which leads to understanding the nature of our universe, specifically our local situation?
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:25 pm  Re: Does God have to be fair and just to be a God? Reply

Quote:
[quote="sawthelight"]
I know I am going to be condemned for posting this but I think it is a fair question.

Do people think that God must be fair and just for him to exist?


I'm sure that this is the general consensus. However, it presumes and absolute standard regarding what is "fair and just". This latter is not agreed upon. It is different depending on ones underlying philosophy. In fact, those who fault Adonai for not being fair and just usually hold to the concept of subjective morality. If morality is indeed subjective, why should one expect other people, let alone another life form to adhere to what one's subjective view of what is "fair and just"?

Quote:
If we look at our history books that date back to the inception of writing there is nothing but war plagued throughout the entire timeline up to now.

Most recent colonizing from the British and French motherlands sent their people to take over foreign land that involved displacing many Aboriginals by killing, deceiving, giving swine flu, etc.

Could our founding forefathers be considered as thieves for taking what was not theirs initially?


Could be, again that would depend on the moral standard one is using. Regarding killing, deceiving and disease, the Europeans got their share in return and much of what occurred was done using equitable trade practices. History records the successful explorers, but there were many more who captured, tortured and/or killed. The Atlantic slave trade was made possible by the slavery practiced among the tribal peoples of Africa. You may recall that there was this thing called the bubonic plague. Well, that was one of the imports from Africa.

Quote:
I mean I enjoy the freedoms we have here in Canada and do like the set up of the system overall. It would be hard to just hand over this land back to all Native people and watch them boot us non-Aboriginals out of Canada.

However this is something I have thought about and pondered if it is the right thing to do. What would happen if US and Canada gave their land back to the First Nations, to correct the first transgression of theft? Is it possible to give them some chunk of land back or would we have to correct it all?


If you read Tocqueville, he notes that this is more due to technological advance, than anything else. Tribal peoples tend to be hunter gatherers. When faced with societies based on innovation, those societies can not compete for resources and the people generally can not adapt to the new society.

Quote:
Does this mean that God is with Canada and the US as affirmed by their national anthem (O'Canada) and the currency (In God We Trust)? Does this mean that God is unjust or unfair? or is it the opposite? or is God not involved at all whatsoever?


That is just jingoism. Nearly every society thinks that a god is on their side. Also, secular societies do the same. They just consider themselves to be morally superior based on things other than a deity.
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