Pressing matters of the day and of all time, debated among thoughtful participants of all faiths


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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:02 am
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Is God interventionist?

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Assuming God exists, which I appreciate some on the forum may not believe, having spent time studying the evidence for interventionist/non-interventionist God, I find the evidence much more compelling for a non-interventionist God.

For example, why would God "answer" a prayer for good weather but ignore a prayer for a dying child. My take on it is that assuming there is a God, he just lets nature take its' course and does not intervene. Prayer/meditation is useful for calming the spirit and talking about issues (even with an invisible presence), often helps in seeking a resolution, however, I don't believe there is sufficient evidence to say prayer works. Christians notoriously excel the supposed answers, but "forget" about the 95%+ of times when they haven't got an answer.

Examples below:-

I prayed for nice weather and it's sunny - Whether you prayed or not, it would be sunny.

I prayed for my cold to go away and today I feel much better - Colds DO go away in 3 days or so.

I prayed for my ill relative in hospital and she's now on the mend - Yes, thanks to medication and efficient medical staff.

Reality is positive and negative things happen to everyone, no matter what religion they accept/don't accept. Atheists suddenly get better from a life threatening illness, atheists find that elusive car parking space, atheists receive needed money when they're really broke..... This is just life NOT an interventionist God.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:25 am
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Great topic.
I am not clear on the subject - but it is for a God existing, but non-intervening?

Well, lets look at all or options:

1. Intervening God - omnipotent?
2. Non-intervening - power doesn't matter?
3. Non-existent God.

Also, we'll need some definitions: Einstein for example defined God AS the universe. A very boring definition of God, wit intelligence as recursive and meaningless.
Is God Christian?

I think we'll find, even after this, the arguments for a non-intervening God are identical to a non-existent God, and there, by the power vested in me by the principal of parsimony, I find that God is unnecessary and therefore non-existent.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:45 am
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Re: Is God interventionist?

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[Replying to post 1 by psychdave]

Yes to the OP. I think the bible makes that pretty clear of God.

I think Willum is on to it though when he inquires whether "power doesn't matter."

I would contend that God can't intervene without us. Or without someone / something giving power to God's will (in this case, to God's interventions).

Like Genesis 1. God calls for the sea to be filled with life, and the sea brings forth life...

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:26 am
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Re: Is God interventionist?

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theophile wrote:

[Replying to post 1 by psychdave]

I would contend that God can't intervene without us. Or without someone / something giving power to God's will (in this case, to God's interventions).

Like Genesis 1. God calls for the sea to be filled with life, and the sea brings forth life...


Hi, many thanks for your reply. I see your logic, however, it doesn't explain to me why an interventionist God doesn't chose to intervene when for example a sick Christian child is pleading with him as are the parents/church. The issue is that nature takes it's course whether God is asked to help or not and whether Christian or atheist some get better and some don't, that's just a fact of life. Prayer may help change the mind and attitudes of those praying but the efficacy is inconclusive and does nothing to prove God is interventionist.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:52 pm
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Re: Is God interventionist?

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[Replying to psychdave]

Quote:
Hi, many thanks for your reply. I see your logic, however, it doesn't explain to me why an interventionist God doesn't chose to intervene when for example a sick Christian child is pleading with him as are the parents/church. The issue is that nature takes it's course whether God is asked to help or not and whether Christian or atheist some get better and some don't, that's just a fact of life. Prayer may help change the mind and attitudes of those praying but the efficacy is inconclusive and does nothing to prove God is interventionist.


You miss my point. We should hear God's call in that child's prayer, and like the sea, respond.

That is the only way prayer's are answered. Is by those who do God's will on earth.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:29 pm
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Separating GOD from All other Consciousness.

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I think of GOD as having many parts to play and these all involve consciousness.

In relation to humans, we represent GOD as the interventionist specific to the good that we do.

Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever believes in Me will also do the works that I am doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

WE have no real access to the nitty gritty details of history and cannot say for sure just how much positive influence on the world of scientific discovery that believers have had. Certainly I would draw the line at claiming they had none.

Prayer in relation to the miraculous which involves the notion of some supernatural happening is questionable, largely because there has never been any scientific involvement in such claims, and the opportunity of repetition is not made available. Plus of course, it is not something those with the means to invest in science are interested in, and they always have the final say on how the world proceeds.

(Those with the gold make the rules, as the saying goes, and is clearly evident.)


Even if someone were to spit in dirt and make a mud-pie and smear that mud onto a blind mans eyelids, and through that the blind man regains his sight, would be scientifically explainable in the same way that a magicians illusion would be.

In relation to the individual believing that they have some kind of communion connection with some idea of GOD (if this can be regarded too as interventionist) then I can go with that...and see what their words and actions bring forth.

In relation to atheists encountering similar things which they do not ascribe to any idea of GOD, this has more to do with point of view (re beliefs) than anything which somehow proves that GOD can or will only work with those who believe in GOD.

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