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Replying to post 12 by Zzyzx]
Zzyzx, at this point you seem to be saying that, "one species transforming into a completely different species", is comparable to when I moved from one state to another, and changed my state citizenship. Well, I am having a hard time swallowing that, and I can see a lot of problems with that analogy, HOWEVER, at this point we do not even need to discuss this.
In other words, at this point, it really does not matter how complicated the process would be, for "one species to transform into a completely different species", because at this point we are discussing whether the process of, "one species transforming into a completely different species", has been, observed, demonstrated, or proven to have occurred, no matter how uncomplicated the process may be.
In fact, even if we could absolutely determine, that "one species transforming into another species", could absolutely take place, (which we have not), this would still not tell us in any way, if this process has actually occurred.
You have agreed that, "one species transforming into a completely different species", has not been observed. Therefore the point is, whether "one species transforming into another completely different species", has been proven to be a fact. How complicated the process, does not matter at this point.
You complain that, there are theist who, claim that the changes can only go so far, and when you ask what would prevent those changes, they give no answer. I fully understand your objection, but I have posed the question to you, what is it that would actually allow the changes to go this far?
In other words, I am not in any way saying that, "one species transforming into a completely different species", cannot, could not, has not, or that there is a limit to how much can occur, so the question to you is, what sort of mechanism is it, that would allow such changes, other than, it is comparable to me changing states? But again, the main question to you is, HAS the "transformation of one species into a completely different species" occurred?
Please allow me to ask this question again! Has "the transformation of one species, into a completely different species" actually occurred? Notice, I am not asking, what you believe, rather I am asking, if it indeed happened? I can tell you what I believe, and I can go on to tell you, why I believe it. What I cannot tell you for certain is, if what I believe is in fact, true.
Zzyzx wrote:We can observe that changes, sometimes large changes, have occurred without actually observing the change occur. For example (using some familiar terms) Christianity has evidently changed (evolved) greatly since its earliest days – from wandering preachers on foot or riding donkeys to address relatively small audiences – to elaborate cathedrals, megachurches, and televangelists addressing tens of thousands or millions. From RCC doctrine to JW, LDS, SDA, Amish, Baptist, Lutheran, and the thousands of sub-sects within 'Christianity' today.
Did anyone alive now observe those changes occurring?
This is not a very good analogy at all. You see, we have writings from back in those days, and I have studied many of them intently, and we can see the changes that have occurred over the years. In the same way, we have seen, and observed changes, and adaptations in certain animals through the years, WHICH IS HOW WE KNOW FOR CERTAIN THAT THESE CHANGES HAVE INDEED OCCURRED. WHAT WE HAVE NOT SEEN, OR OBSERVED, WHICH IS WHY WE CANNOT BE CERTAIN IS, "ONE SPECIES TRANSFROMING INTO A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SPECIES!"
In fact, there is a book that I cannot remember the actual title, but it was something to the effect of, "The Process of Christian Thought", and it reached back some 2000 years. So then, there are tools we can use, to understand what you call, "the evolution of Christianity", because although there may not be those alive today that may have actually witnessed these changes, there were those alive that recorded certain events.
The question now is, was there anyone alive to witness, "one species transforming into a completely different species", that may have recorded the events? But even it there was, I imagine that we as Christians, could question the authorship, just as many of those opposed to Christianity question the authorship, of the Biblical books! Just a joke, couldn't help myself.
realworldjack wrote:You may be correct to say that these "Apologists" you speak of, simply assume that genetic change, can only go so far.
Zzyzx wrote:Actually, their position is that genetic change CANNOT 'go that far'.
Can you explain the difference between our quotes? I am agreeing that if they make this statement, they must be "assuming."
Zzyzx wrote:My position is that the amount of change possible has not been shown to be limited by any factor or mechanism.
I not only understand your position, I agree with it, which is why I say, "they have to be assuming." However, my question to you is, has the amount of change possible, been shown to be UNLIMITED by any factor or mechanism? Or, do we simply ASSUME that, since there has been some change, then this means there must be, UNLIMITED change? You see, I understand that there can be, but I also understand that, simply because some change has occurred, does not mean that the change must be, unlimited.
Zzyzx wrote:If we were all aware of what biologists / geneticists mean when they say 'evolution' (genetic change through generations), we would all understand that it DOES occur every time a microbe develops antibiotic resistance that is passed to its offspring.
AGAIN, I fully understand that this occurs. The question is, how does this tell us that these microbes, or anything else for that matter, transform into something other than microbes, or into "another completely different species?"
Zzyzx wrote:RCC can't possibly produce JW and LDS as an offspring. Right?
Right! However, someone who is born into RCC can decide to become a JW. So, are you suggesting that, one species could simply decide to become a different species?
Zzyzx wrote:The 'tactic', Jack, is to study what actually occurs in nature and to report it as well as possible and have it checked by other studies worldwide by disconnected investigators.
Okay! Well, have these "studies, checked out by other studies worldwide, by disconnected investigators", proven that, "one species has indeed transformed into a completely different species?"
Again, this is where many Christians could be concerned about some sort of conspiracy. In other words, many scientists, and evolutionists, seem to be saying, "one species transforming into a completely different species", HAS occurred, instead of claiming, that it is BELIEVED to have occurred!
Zzyzx wrote:Quite a conspiracy – that includes thousands of scientists / biologists / geneticists who ARE Christians. What are those Christian scientists thinking when they say that evolution does occur?
Whoa, wait a minute! Are these "thousands of scientists" who are claiming that "evolution has occurred", speaking of evolution, (genetic change through generations)? If so, then we have no problem. But the real question is, has there been any scientists at all, who have demonstrated, or proven, that evolution (one species transforming into a completely different species) has in fact, occurred? The point is, what exactly are all these scientists agreeing to when they say, "evolution has occurred?"
Zzyzx wrote:OH? Is that the question being debated when the OP questions for debate are:
Are modern medicine, communication, transportation, etc part of the 'great conspiracy against religion'?
Are the thousands of scientists who are Christians part of the 'great conspiracy?
From the OP,
But suddenly you get into the theory of evolution, and science is now some totally inaccurate mass conspiracy, incapable of getting anything right as it relates to the age of the planet or the progression of life.
Zzyzx wrote:I do not pretend to know how much can occur and am not aware of any limiting mechanism for the amount of change.
We seem to be in agreement here. In other words, there is nothing whatsoever that tells us these changes are limited in any way. However, there also is nothing whatsoever that would tell us, they are, unlimited. Therefore, it would be dishonest for anyone to claim, "the changes are limited." But it would be just as dishonest to claim, "these changes are unlimited" or that, "one species transforming into a completely different species is a fact, and has indeed occurred."
Zzyzx wrote:Those who insist that major change does NOT occur are welcome to present their evidence and to identify the mechanism that limits the amount of change.
AGREED! And those who claim that the changes that we have seen occur in certain species, are UNLIMITED, and "one species transforming into another species is possible", are welcome to present the evidence.
You see, there have been definite changes in certain species, throughout generations, and these changes have been observed. However, these changes, do not in any way necessitate, that it is even possible for one species to transform into another species. Moreover, one species transforming into a completely different species, has never been observed. Therefore, to say that, "one species transforming into a completely different species can occur", would be an assumption, just as it would be an assumption to say that, "it cannot occur."
realworldjack wrote:In short, evolution, (genetic change through generations) has been demonstrated, proven, and observed. However, evolution, (one species transforming into a completely different species) has not! Correct me if I am wrong?
Zzyzx wrote:Agreed. That change has not been observed.
This agreement seems sort of strange, because I did not simply say, "it had not been observed", I also said it had not been, demonstrated, or proven. Can we agree on all three? If we can, I believe we would no longer have a debate concerning, evolution.
In other words, we could agree that, evolution (genetic change through generations) has indeed occurred. We could also agree that, evolution (one species transforming into a completely different species) may have occurred, but it has not been, observed, demonstrated, or proven to have occurred.
If we could do this then, we could demonstrate that there is no tactics involved, as far as you, and I are concerned.