Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?
Point being, Jesus did not fulfill the Jewish expectation for the Messiah. The Christian Christ fulfilled a different role as the sacrificial savior. How do we bridge our Christian Christ with Jewish Jesus?
Do you think Jesus thought of himself as the Divine second person of the holy trinity?
Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?
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Re: Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?
Post #11[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]
It is clear Jews expected a theological political Messiah who would liberate Judah from foreign occupation. Theologically there is no way they should pay tribute to a foreign power for the land God gave to Abraham's descendants .
It is clear Jews expected a theological political Messiah who would liberate Judah from foreign occupation. Theologically there is no way they should pay tribute to a foreign power for the land God gave to Abraham's descendants .
Re: Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?
Post #12[Replying to post 4 by Willum]
Willum, can you reference this statement; "f he were the son out of we-lock or unlawfully, then he is not Jewish for three generations. in accordance with Jewish law."
this is a new fact for me.
Willum, can you reference this statement; "f he were the son out of we-lock or unlawfully, then he is not Jewish for three generations. in accordance with Jewish law."
this is a new fact for me.
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Re: Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?
Post #13[Replying to post 12 by dio9]
Deuteronomy 23:2, but oops, it is the tenth generation (or never), not third.
Deuteronomy 23:2, but oops, it is the tenth generation (or never), not third.
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Re: Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?
Post #14No. Definitely not.....dio9 wrote: Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?
Point being, Jesus did not fulfill the Jewish expectation for the Messiah. The Christian Christ fulfilled a different role as the sacrificial savior. How do we bridge our Christian Christ with Jewish Jesus?
Do you think Jesus thought of himself as the Divine second person of the holy trinity?
Yeshua BarYosef started a mission up in Galilee, probably sympathetic to that of John the Baptist, but it failed. then Yeshua went to Jerusalem with his followers, probably hoping to sway the masses to his cause. He failed.
At some time after that the words Christ, Christian, Christianity, Jesus and SonofGod surfaced.
Re: Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?
Post #15Can you explain what do you mean by Jewish Jesusdio9 wrote: Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?
Do you think Jesus thought of himself as the Divine second person of the holy trinity?
and Christian Christ?
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Re: Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?
Post #16[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]
Can I engage in what looks to me to be retconning of prophecy?
I find it quite astounding as to how a civilisation of people can have a collection of what they call prophecies, say that this is what someone has to do in order to be called their messiah...and when a certain man comes along and doesn't fulfill them, it's said of the people 'oh they didn't understand their own prophecies, Jesus really did fulfill them'.The first century Jews had expectations based on their political ambitions, worldly aspirations and inaccurate interpretation of scripture. Jesus fulfilled the scriptural requirements of the Messiah and gave ample proof of his Messiahship. The error was neither in scripture nor in his credentials.
Can I engage in what looks to me to be retconning of prophecy?
Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"
I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead
Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense
Re: Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?
Post #17Two questions;oldbadger wrote:No. Definitely not.....dio9 wrote: Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?
Point being, Jesus did not fulfill the Jewish expectation for the Messiah. The Christian Christ fulfilled a different role as the sacrificial savior. How do we bridge our Christian Christ with Jewish Jesus?
Do you think Jesus thought of himself as the Divine second person of the holy trinity?
Yeshua BarYosef started a mission up in Galilee, probably sympathetic to that of John the Baptist, but it failed. then Yeshua went to Jerusalem with his followers, probably hoping to sway the masses to his cause. He failed.
At some time after that the words Christ, Christian, Christianity, Jesus and SonofGod surfaced.
Do you think Jesus thought of his mission as the Jews hoped for messiah?
Do you think he thought of his mission was to fulfill the Christians idea of Christ?
I know he asked the disciples who the people think that he is, but who did he think he was?
Re: Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?
Post #18I'm thinking along the line of historic the Jesus and / post resurrection Christ.
The Jews we know rejected the Christians idea of Christ which came later , not Jesus.
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Re: Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?
Post #19Yes I agree, as I said earlier ...dio9 wrote:[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]
It is clear Jews expected a theological political Messiah who would liberate Judah from foreign occupation.
They were looking for what they, not God, wanted in a Messiah and rejected both.JehovahsWitness wrote: The first century Jews had expectations based on their political ambitions, worldly aspirations and inaccurate interpretation of scripture.
rikuoamero wrote:
I find it quite astounding as to how a civilisation of people can have a collection of what they call prophecies, say that this is what someone has to do in order to be called their messiah...and when a certain man comes along and doesn't fulfill them, it's said of the people 'oh they didn't understand their own prophecies, Jesus really did fulfill them'.
Can I engage in what looks to me to be retconning of prophecy?
Well if they understood their own scripture they would have accepted Jesus as the Messiah. This was nothing new, their own scripture recorded their histroty of stubbornness and faithlessness as well as their systematic rejection of God's prophets. They were just keeping in line with their former obtuse refusal to listen to God.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?
Post #20Jews who invented the concept of Messiah in the first place, certainly have the right to define the parameters of that concept.rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]
I find it quite astounding as to how a civilisation of people can have a collection of what they call prophecies, say that this is what someone has to do in order to be called their messiah...and when a certain man comes along and doesn't fulfill them, it's said of the people 'oh they didn't understand their own prophecies, Jesus really did fulfill them'.The first century Jews had expectations based on their political ambitions, worldly aspirations and inaccurate interpretation of scripture. Jesus fulfilled the scriptural requirements of the Messiah and gave ample proof of his Messiahship. The error was neither in scripture nor in his credentials.
Can I engage in what looks to me to be retconning of prophecy?
The historical Jesus didn't fulfill those parameters the first time around. Problem "solved" by having the Christ of Faith fulfill the parameters the 2nd time around sometime in the future with his "2nd coming".
As well, (as you point out) by redefining the concept of Messiah to fit Jesus as the Son of God who is killed to "pay for" humanity's sins.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.