Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?

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dio9
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Re: Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?

Post #11

Post by dio9 »

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

It is clear Jews expected a theological political Messiah who would liberate Judah from foreign occupation. Theologically there is no way they should pay tribute to a foreign power for the land God gave to Abraham's descendants .

dio9
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Re: Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?

Post #12

Post by dio9 »

[Replying to post 4 by Willum]

Willum, can you reference this statement; "f he were the son out of we-lock or unlawfully, then he is not Jewish for three generations. in accordance with Jewish law."
this is a new fact for me.

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Willum
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Re: Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?

Post #13

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 12 by dio9]

Deuteronomy 23:2, but oops, it is the tenth generation (or never), not third.

oldbadger
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Re: Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?

Post #14

Post by oldbadger »

dio9 wrote: Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?

Point being, Jesus did not fulfill the Jewish expectation for the Messiah. The Christian Christ fulfilled a different role as the sacrificial savior. How do we bridge our Christian Christ with Jewish Jesus?

Do you think Jesus thought of himself as the Divine second person of the holy trinity?
No. Definitely not.....
Yeshua BarYosef started a mission up in Galilee, probably sympathetic to that of John the Baptist, but it failed. then Yeshua went to Jerusalem with his followers, probably hoping to sway the masses to his cause. He failed.

At some time after that the words Christ, Christian, Christianity, Jesus and SonofGod surfaced.

Monta
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Re: Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?

Post #15

Post by Monta »

dio9 wrote: Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?

Do you think Jesus thought of himself as the Divine second person of the holy trinity?
Can you explain what do you mean by Jewish Jesus
and Christian Christ?

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rikuoamero
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Re: Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?

Post #16

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]
The first century Jews had expectations based on their political ambitions, worldly aspirations and inaccurate interpretation of scripture. Jesus fulfilled the scriptural requirements of the Messiah and gave ample proof of his Messiahship. The error was neither in scripture nor in his credentials.
I find it quite astounding as to how a civilisation of people can have a collection of what they call prophecies, say that this is what someone has to do in order to be called their messiah...and when a certain man comes along and doesn't fulfill them, it's said of the people 'oh they didn't understand their own prophecies, Jesus really did fulfill them'.
Can I engage in what looks to me to be retconning of prophecy?
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dio9
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Re: Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?

Post #17

Post by dio9 »

oldbadger wrote:
dio9 wrote: Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?

Point being, Jesus did not fulfill the Jewish expectation for the Messiah. The Christian Christ fulfilled a different role as the sacrificial savior. How do we bridge our Christian Christ with Jewish Jesus?

Do you think Jesus thought of himself as the Divine second person of the holy trinity?
No. Definitely not.....
Yeshua BarYosef started a mission up in Galilee, probably sympathetic to that of John the Baptist, but it failed. then Yeshua went to Jerusalem with his followers, probably hoping to sway the masses to his cause. He failed.

At some time after that the words Christ, Christian, Christianity, Jesus and SonofGod surfaced.
Two questions;
Do you think Jesus thought of his mission as the Jews hoped for messiah?
Do you think he thought of his mission was to fulfill the Christians idea of Christ?

I know he asked the disciples who the people think that he is, but who did he think he was?

dio9
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Re: Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?

Post #18

Post by dio9 »

Monta wrote:
dio9 wrote: Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?

Do you think Jesus thought of himself as the Divine second person of the holy trinity?
Can you explain what do you mean by Jewish Jesus
and Christian Christ?
I'm thinking along the line of historic the Jesus and / post resurrection Christ.

The Jews we know rejected the Christians idea of Christ which came later , not Jesus.

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Re: Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?

Post #19

Post by JehovahsWitness »

dio9 wrote:[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

It is clear Jews expected a theological political Messiah who would liberate Judah from foreign occupation.
Yes I agree, as I said earlier ...
JehovahsWitness wrote: The first century Jews had expectations based on their political ambitions, worldly aspirations and inaccurate interpretation of scripture.
They were looking for what they, not God, wanted in a Messiah and rejected both.
rikuoamero wrote:
I find it quite astounding as to how a civilisation of people can have a collection of what they call prophecies, say that this is what someone has to do in order to be called their messiah...and when a certain man comes along and doesn't fulfill them, it's said of the people 'oh they didn't understand their own prophecies, Jesus really did fulfill them'.
Can I engage in what looks to me to be retconning of prophecy?

Well if they understood their own scripture they would have accepted Jesus as the Messiah. This was nothing new, their own scripture recorded their histroty of stubbornness and faithlessness as well as their systematic rejection of God's prophets. They were just keeping in line with their former obtuse refusal to listen to God.

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Re: Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?

Post #20

Post by Elijah John »

rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]
The first century Jews had expectations based on their political ambitions, worldly aspirations and inaccurate interpretation of scripture. Jesus fulfilled the scriptural requirements of the Messiah and gave ample proof of his Messiahship. The error was neither in scripture nor in his credentials.
I find it quite astounding as to how a civilisation of people can have a collection of what they call prophecies, say that this is what someone has to do in order to be called their messiah...and when a certain man comes along and doesn't fulfill them, it's said of the people 'oh they didn't understand their own prophecies, Jesus really did fulfill them'.
Can I engage in what looks to me to be retconning of prophecy?
Jews who invented the concept of Messiah in the first place, certainly have the right to define the parameters of that concept.

The historical Jesus didn't fulfill those parameters the first time around. Problem "solved" by having the Christ of Faith fulfill the parameters the 2nd time around sometime in the future with his "2nd coming".

As well, (as you point out) by redefining the concept of Messiah to fit Jesus as the Son of God who is killed to "pay for" humanity's sins.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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