Angels in creation

[Willum]

"Angels don't act like that!" Frank Castle
"I don't know, what do any of us really know about angels?" Steve Rogers

In John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

If we translate word to mean "will," it implies that God employed angels working with his will in the beginning, or during creation.

Debate: Did God use angels directing them with his word in creation, acting "as one" with him?

Also, if not, why are angels needed with an all-powerful god?
and what then could John mean?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 15 by bluethread]

You don't need to - the purpose of the OP is if YOU all can support better evidence, one way or the other for the OP.

Discounting the assertion is one way, but you've had no luck there... maybe you should try using the Bible to support or discount the assertion.

That's what the OP's about, if you don't believe an interpretation of John 1:1 demonstrate a better one, or come up with other Bible-bits to draw a conclusion one way or another.

You don't believe the assertion of the OP? Demo a better one. If you can't then accept it. But to not accept it, and not have a better one means, you lose the debate.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 13 by JehovahsWitness]

Do I have proof that Greek was a language where context was important? This simply reflects your ignorance of the language. Investigate it, because nothing I will say will convince you. It is trivial to investigate the magnificence that is the language of ancient Greece. (But you won't.)

So, if Google Translate is not a sufficient reference for you, your highness, just what will please your Majesty, mylord?

Actually, if you don't want to discuss the OP, then DON'T. It really isn't my place to educate you, and since you have demonstrated a pattern of running away when things are proven to you, rather then accept the truth, WHY should I further invest my time?

Google Translate backs up the use of the word "cause," Greek is a linguistic construct different from English, those are positive, proven assertions.

Either YOU prove they are wrong, which is, of course, impossible, leave the OP, or join it.

Moderator Warning

All this is inappropriate:

- This simply reflects your ignorance of the language
- your highness, just what will please your Majesty, mylord?
- since you have demonstrated a pattern of running away when things are proven to you

Why not be gentler (especially if you think you are winning)?

Please review our Rules.

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[Willum]

[Replying to post 13 by JehovahsWitness]

You should become conversant in the wonders that are in the Greek language, lest you continue to make bad assumptions about how well it is constructed.

If the common, easily accessible translation source, Google Translate, does not meet your standards, please let me know one that will.

In short, I have submitted positive indicators; decrying them is not sufficient to disprove them, you must supplement or replace them with something better.

Such as some context of Greek which states it's inflexibility, or some source that contradicts Google Translate.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 19 by amortalman]

I am interested if the creation story employed angels...
If so/if not...
Whatever you are comfortable with...

But were angels used a builders, and not just messengers?

[marco]

In my understanding, the book of John goes on to clarify that the "Word" means Jesus Christ because it reads "the Word was with God and the Word was God and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." Why complicate things by redefining Logos?

Why complicate the already complicated, indeed? There is no obvious sense in saying that in the beginning was the word; we have to dig deeply into complexities of meaning to get any meaning.

If angels act as the announcers of such complexities then perhaps their existence is meaningful.

[Willum]

Or if we translate "word" in the context of "will," as in to give ones' word, then we can have a discussion about whether of not angels are only messengers, but assisted in creation. Instead of beating the assumption to death.

[Monta]

"Angels don't act like that!" Frank Castle
"I don't know, what do any of us really know about angels?" Steve Rogers

In John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

If we translate word to mean "will," it implies that God employed angels working with his will in the beginning, or during creation.

Debate: Did God use angels directing them with his word in creation, acting "as one" with him?

Also, if not, why are angels needed with an all-powerful god?
and what then could John mean?

How many 'words' are in the world today? Could we as human beings exist without 'words'? Jesus was The Word, the wisdom/truth of God.

Angels are not divine and can never act as 'one with him'.

Why are angels needed can be answered by knowing who they are; angels are human, spiritualy developed. We have spiritual and celestial angels and I would think many natural angels as ones still living in the body.
At Jesus' transfiguration we saw Him with Elijah and Moses who are angels as otherwise they would not have been able to endure the presence of the Transfigured Christ.

[amortalman]

In my understanding, the book of John goes on to clarify that the "Word" means Jesus Christ because it reads "the Word was with God and the Word was God and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." Why complicate things by redefining Logos?

Why complicate the already complicated, indeed? There is no obvious sense in saying that in the beginning was the word; we have to dig deeply into complexities of meaning to get any meaning.

If angels act as the announcers of such complexities then perhaps their existence is meaningful.

I disagree. It does make obvious sense because the text I quoted above explains who the "Word" is, Jesus Christ. He was in the beginning with God, He was God in His essence, and He was born into this world as a man. Fully man, fully God (according to the scriptures). Whatever complications one wants to create with definitions of Logos doesn't really matter. Logos is still referring to Chris in John 1:1 and that's the way many scholars interpret it.

IF there are angels, and I don't believe there are, of course, their existence has meaning else God would not have created them.

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

If we translate word to mean "will," it implies that God employed angels working with his will in the beginning, or during creation.

We're now tasked with showing God meant him the one thing, only it is, he said him the other'n.

Go ahead, y'all that can.

Did God use angels directing them with his word in creation, acting "as one" with him?

An entity that can't be shown to exist can't possibly be shown to use him some other entities, that can't none of them be shown to exist.

Much less that adding one and one suddenly becomes one. Or one and three.

Also, if not, why are angels needed with an all-powerful god?

To flesh out the tale. "Not only is God right there all-powerful, he done all-powerfulled him up a whole group of nother'ns that's just as all-powerful, only they have assigned tasks."

and what then could John mean?

Could mean John's loster'n him a cow at a square dance.

[amortalman]

[Replying to post 19 by amortalman]

I am interested if the creation story employed angels...
If so/if not...
Whatever you are comfortable with...

But were angels used a builders, and not just messengers?

With only my layman's knowledge of the Bible, I have never read anything that supports the notion that God employed angels in his creation. Some Bible students have speculated that Genesis 1:26 could possibly refer to angels by using the pronouns "us" and "our".
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.� But most interpret the pronouns to mean the trinity.

The pronoun "We" is used in Gen 11:7
“Come, let us go down and there confuse their [fn]language, so that they will not understand one another's [fn]speech.� Again, it is better understood to mean the trinity.

There is, however, a verse that comes to mind which seems to indicate that God alone created everything. Paul is speaking of Christ in Col 1:16 with this:
For [fn]by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.