Book of Revelation

[Benoni]

Here is my point. If it the Book of Revelation is literal; line and verse please.

John was in spirit on the Lord ’s Day; He was looking a literal church; but a spiritual church.

Revelations 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass (not 2000 years); and he sent and signified (signs and symbols) it by his angel (messenger) unto his servant John:

John was in Spirit on the Lord’s Day; this makes the Revelation a spiritual book; not literal, not carnal, not prophetic literal. Revelation or the unveiling of Jesus Christ; it is the most spiritual Book in all the Bible; and I always put Genesis in second place. It is a book full of hidden spiritual symbolisms and for those who have the spiritual eyes or ears to see or hear it. No where does it say John was being literal in any sense.




This one little word is so reverent to the whole book Revelations; ‘signified� or signs and symbols. The Book Revelations can only be understood but as a very deep and awesome spiritual book by using signs and symbols that can only be found in the Bible. Where do you find these signs and symbols; all thought the Bible; written yes by the hands of deep spiritual men from many ages.

You speak over 800 OT references; great point. As natural men how can we understand what God is truly saying with His spiritual symbolism but by natural literal examples written in the very Word we are suppose to believe in? What a better place to open up this spiritual hidden book but by God’s Word w

[onewithhim]

Here is my point. If it the Book of Revelation is literal; line and verse please.

John was in spirit on the Lord ’s Day; He was looking a literal church; but a spiritual church.

Revelations 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass (not 2000 years); and he sent and signified (signs and symbols) it by his angel (messenger) unto his servant John:

John was in Spirit on the Lord’s Day; this makes the Revelation a spiritual book; not literal, not carnal, not prophetic literal. Revelation or the unveiling of Jesus Christ; it is the most spiritual Book in all the Bible; and I always put Genesis in second place. It is a book full of hidden spiritual symbolisms and for those who have the spiritual eyes or ears to see or hear it. No where does it say John was being literal in any sense.




This one little word is so reverent to the whole book Revelations; ‘signified� or signs and symbols. The Book Revelations can only be understood but as a very deep and awesome spiritual book by using signs and symbols that can only be found in the Bible. Where do you find these signs and symbols; all thought the Bible; written yes by the hands of deep spiritual men from many ages.

You speak over 800 OT references; great point. As natural men how can we understand what God is truly saying with His spiritual symbolism but by natural literal examples written in the very Word we are suppose to believe in? What a better place to open up this spiritual hidden book but by God’s Word w

Perhaps a better question would be: "Is the book of Revelation symbolic or literal or both?" That would also be answered with "both," though more symbolic than literal.

You say "shortly" would not mean 2,000 years. I ask, wouldn't God look at events in 2,000 years' time as "shortly"? He is eternal, and time is different to Him. The Scripture says that a thousand years is as one day to Him! (2 Peter 3:8; Psalm 90:4)

It is, IMHO, faulty thinking to say that the book of Revelation is not concerned with prophetic events. In fact, there are many things in Revelation that haven't been fulfilled yet, such as the destruction of Satan and his demons and wicked people, the ending of death and suffering, and the planet being restored to what it was supposed to be in the beginning. So....there is much in Revelation that can't be placed as having been fulfilled back in the 1st or 2nd century.

[Benoni]

[Replying to onewithhim]

I see it very symbolic but symbolism and metaphors that are spiritual in nature, God hides His deep truths from the religious and the carnal and reveals them to babes.

1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.

example: NT:5178 a

tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture).



God speaks thought His Word in many hidden and ways the below verse speaks of parable; but I will also add spiritual or scriptural numbers, mysteries (Gk) Sacred secrets, used over 20 times in NT) patterns, types, different languages, even deceptions to hide His word from the religious, the , wise, the carnal; and reveal it to babes. A babe is not the same as someone who can handle the milk of the word, anyone can handle milk; but a babe is like my small grandchildren when I speak to them; they trust everything I say, they have ears to hear.

I will add I always love the symbolism of the manchild in Revelation; man/masculine speaks of spirit, as well as mature because a man is a full grown mature person; but this man has that child perception; which most people lose as they grow and mature,

Matthew 13 :13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; 15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' 16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;

[Divine Insight]

The Book Revelations can only be understood but as a very deep and awesome spiritual book by using signs and symbols that can only be found in the Bible.

My questions to you would then be the following:

1. Do you understand what the book of Revelation is saying?

You've already called it the Book "Revelations" with an "s" on the end indicating that you already aren't paying a whole lot of attention to detail.

And my second question is only relevant if you answer the first question affirmative:

2. What do you believe the book of Revelation is saying?

Can you give us clear and concise synopsis?

I've read the book of Revelation and I pretty much agree with the following summary:

Book of Revelation Summary


The book opens with our narrator, John. He's just a mild-mannered Christian guy living in exile when—pow!—God hits him with a doozy of a revelation (hey, that's not a bad idea for a title). John is told to write down everything God shows him, and boy is God going to show him some strange things.

First, John sees a vision of Heaven. There he meets God and Jesus and all sorts of other angels, elders, and weird six-winged creatures that inhabit the heavenly realms. After a brief how-do-you-do, John sees Jesus come forward (in the form of a seven-eyed lamb) and open seven seals. Each of the seals lets loose God's fury on the Earth. We're talking rivers of blood, plagues of locusts, giant hailstones, twenty more seasons of Jersey Shore. The last seal unleashes seven angelic trumpeters, which in turn unleashes seven bowls of God's judgment. Yep, God really has a thing for sevens… and pouring down his wrath on non-believers.

Rivers of blood not freaking you out enough? While all this is happening, John sees some pretty hideous creatures lurking around. A giant red dragon, a beast with seven heads, and another beast who also happens to love the number 666. John is told that these baddies have been busy convincing the people of Earth to worship them instead of God. They also like to kill Christians and just generally be evil. Things are not going to go well for them.

After God sends all the plagues to Earth and loads of people die (eek!), he has the armies of Heaven wipe the dragon and the two beasts off the face of the Earth. Literally. They get thrown in the Lake of Fire… along with all their followers who refuse to worship God.

As for all the faithful Christians who stayed strong and kept faith in Jesus, they get to go to a splendid city in the sky where the streets are paved with gold and diamonds and nothing bad ever happens to anyone ever again. It's all sunshine and lollipops and the eternal light of God.

John ends the whole book by assuring us that everything he saw is totally and 100% true and that it's all going to happen for real very, very soon. The hour is at hand, so repent, y'all. Don't say that a seven-eyed lamb didn't warn you.

By the way, do notice how everything is done in sevens. This is actually an ancient religious superstition based on the fact that back in those days only seven known "wandering stars" were seen in the sky. The idea that some actual God would be obsessed with doing everything in sevens it really quite silly. My opinion, of course.

So does the above summary match what you see? Or do you have a different tale to tell?

[Benoni]

[Replying to post 4 by Divine Insight]

No I do not agree with you. I see you ignored what the book of revelation is saying point one. John was in spirit on the Lords day. With someone with the handle of Devine Insight you have surely missed this important point.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 4 by Divine Insight]

No I do not agree with you. I see you ignored what the book of revelation is saying point one. John was in spirit on the Lords day. With someone with the handle of Devine Insight you have surely missed this important point.

Sorry, but everything you've just said appears to be nothing more than gibberish to me.

Do you have a clear and coherent summary of the book of Revelation to offer or not?

If you do, then by all means this is a good thread to share your insight.

If you don't, then clearly you have nothing to offer.

Talking about John being in the spirit on the Lords day is devoid of any meaningful or coherent revelation. You'll need to do far better than that.

[Benoni]

[Replying to post 4 by Divine Insight]

No I do not agree with you. I see you ignored what the book of revelation is saying point one. John was in spirit on the Lords day. With someone with the handle of Devine Insight you have surely missed this important point.

Sorry, but everything you've just said appears to be nothing more than gibberish to me.

Do you have a clear and coherent summary of the book of Revelation to offer or not?

If you do, then by all means this is a good thread to share your insight.

If you don't, then clearly you have nothing to offer.

Talking about John being in the spirit on the Lords day is devoid of any meaningful or coherent revelation. You'll need to do far better than that.

Obviously if you do not know what being spiritual means than there is no reason to try to explain something you are not.

1 Corinthians 2:
14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

[Divine Insight]

Obviously if you do not know what being spiritual means than there is no reason to try to explain something you are not.

1 Corinthians 2:
14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

If your line of apologetic argument has any merit at all then Christian evangelism would be ridiculous. What would be the point in evangelizing to people who are incapable of understanding this spiritual gibberish?

In fact, why would you even bother posting on public debate site any information that might actually reveal something to people who supposedly aren't supposed to understand it?

The fact is that you have no meaningful interpretation of the book of Revelation because there is no rational or meaningful message behind it. If there was a meaningful message behind it you could explain it to everyone in plain English.

The idea that it's a "spiritual message" is no excuse for it being an incoherent message. Even the most devout secular naturalists can "understand" abstract concepts like the idea of a "spiritual world" etc. So the idea that only "spiritual people" could understand it only proves that there's nothing to it. This is rock solid proof of the fallacy of this religious dogma.

If there were anything to it at all you could summarize it in brief in a very coherent and meaningful way. The worst that could happen is that non-believers would not believe it, but to claim that they couldn't understand it is quite frankly utterly absurd.

In fact, if the Bible claims this to be the case, then that's just evidence that the authors of the Bible wrote utterly absurd things as well.

So clearly there's nothing to it.

I was actually interested in hearing your "spiritual interpretations". That's why I posted in this thread and asked for your explanation. But it's crystal clear now that you don't even have any meaningful interpretations to offer at all. None whatsoever. Not even a guess apparently.

The summary I posted from the web is the only interpretation offered in this thread so far. Until I see a competing interpretation I guess the interpretation I posted stands as the only one offered thus far. It's certainly the most common interpretation I've seen. In fact, I really have never seen anything else that even remotely reflects what's actually written in the doctrine.

This is just another empty apology by theists to pretend that the doctrine of their religion doesn't really mean what it actually says.

[Benoni]

[Replying to Divine Insight]

You are so off base with this an obviously you think a deep spiritual message anyone can figure it out well if that is the case then there is no mystery. But spiritual messages are hidden deep mysteries (Gk) sacred secret). By the way it is a very coherent message to those who have spiritual ears to hear, But a very incoherent message to those who do not. I am posting this to those who have ears and there are plenty of us but perhaps there are none here. Tell me what spiritual is to start with and I will begin with spiritual baby steps seeing you are so curious. John was in Spirit on the Lord's day that is how the book begins and like all good books they start off with the meat of the message.

The thousand years U believe was mentioned above as if this has something to do with carnal man’s understanding of time to limit what God is truly doing to their understanding. The thousand years of God cannot be measured by human carnal understanding of time; but is symbolic and spiritual; that is how The Book of Revelation's should be interpreted.

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Let’s look at some interesting points about the Book of Revelation I mentioned fire in another post. God’s fire is not physical fire the type we roast hot dogs of people in the Lake of Fire. God’s fire is spiritual and the spiritual meaning of fire is hidden in the Bible.

Even though the judgements of God will be against the evil works that man has done, those judgements will still result in man's salvation. 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 says, "Every man's work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
"God is spirit - that is His substance. God is love that is His nature. God is also light and fire - they are His manifestations. We speak of fiery trials, HE IS IN EVERY ONE OF THEM. May we go even farther? He is the source of the fire in our fiery trial, HE' is the fire thereof.
You say that God's hand is resting upon you - you say that He has filled with His Spirit and His anointing is upon your life, guiding you into all truth. Then don't be amazed at the fiery testing that is yours also, for with every advancing step into new truth, there needs to be a purging out of error and past traditions, sin and shame; which are contrary to pure truth. The fire to burn out the dross is the Holy Spirit God has placed within, GOD is fire.
"Kenneth Wuest, in his translation, calls the fiery trial 'the smelting process.' A fiery ordeal, a smelting process - why? because it will both purify us, as well as reveal what degree of quality has been attained within.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to Divine Insight]

You are so off base with this an obviously you think a deep spiritual message anyone can figure it out well if that is the case then there is no mystery. But spiritual messages are hidden deep mysteries (Gk) sacred secret).

That's already an oxymoron. If this religion is supposed to be about free will choice then it can't also be about secret messages that are being withheld from people so they can't make an informed free will choice.

So this religious paradigm proves its own fallacy.

Besides, this religion was originally founded on the idea of morality. But with the advent of Christianity it has become a club where only those who have the secret decoder ring can join.

And finally, if this God is supposed to be about LOVE, then only unloving people would need to worry about being condemn. It couldn't have anything to do with being able to decode secret messages.

Any loving person would automatically be their own salvation.

So if this God is supposed to be all about love, then no special decoder ring could be required.