Besides 'because the bible says so'....

Youkilledkenny · Post by **Youkilledkenny** » Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:53 pm

Let's leave out the 'because the bible says' arguments for this thread; biblical quoting is pointless in this discussion as a book claiming itself to be true is ludicrous and is seemingly only permissible with the bible itself.

What are the (I'd guess) many reasons why someone that currently doesn't believe in the biblical god* should believe in the biblical god?
Are there any items you can point to nature and say "See? God!" without debate?
Are there actions that everyone comes in contact with that says "See? God!" without debate?
Are there any part of humanity where one can point and say "See? God!" without debate?
Or are all non-biblical references to God simply too personalized to use in this scenario?

* Biblical god here meaning not 'a god' but the god as described in the current, modern Christian bible from both Testaments

historia · Post by **historia** » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:39 pm

Youkilledkenny wrote:
Besides 'because the bible says so'.... What are the things that makes one believe in God?

Arguments for the existence of God outside of revelation are generally referred to as 'natural theology'. This includes cosmological, teleological, and ontological arguments, as well as arguments from consciousness, reason, morality, religious experience and miracles.

Each of those, of course, deserve their own thread (if not multiple threads), so I'm not sure what, if anything, you hoped to accomplish with so broad a question here.

Youkilledkenny · Post by **Youkilledkenny** » Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:32 pm

[Replying to post 31 by historia]

The hope was to see what, if any, independent thought existed outside of "well, to quote the bible..." or the like.
Rather that includes items that you listed or others would be up to the individual to include.

Blastcat · Post by **Blastcat** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:44 pm

[Replying to post 5 by ttruscott]

ttruscott wrote: I've not seen 'because the bible says' in this place for the last 5 years..

What's the proof of God's existence, then?

Blastcat · Post by **Blastcat** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:45 pm

historia wrote:
Each of those, of course, deserve their own thread (if not multiple threads), so I'm not sure what, if anything, you hoped to accomplish with so broad a question here.

Perhaps a broad kind of understanding.

polonius · Post by **polonius** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:07 pm

Blastcat wrote: [Replying to post 5 by ttruscott]

ttruscott wrote: I've not seen 'because the bible says' in this place for the last 5 years..
What's the proof of God's existence, then?

RESPONSE: Common sense. There was always something in existence which had, in some way. to contain all that was subsequently going to exist, or we would have to have had creation from nothing.

Zzyzx · Post by **Zzyzx** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:25 pm

.

polonius.advice wrote:
Blastcat wrote: What's the proof of God's existence, then?
RESPONSE: Common sense. There was always something in existence which had, in some way. to contain all that was subsequently going to exist, or we would have to have had creation from nothing.

UNcommon sense (apparently) tells me to NOT claim to know what I do not know -- and to avoid presenting guesses / speculation / conjecture as though it was knowledge (only present speculation if clearly and honestly identified as speculation / opinion and NOT masquerading as truth or knowledge).

Origin of 'everything in existence' is beyond current human knowledge. A few astrophysicists study such things and propose THEORIES. Many religionists study ancient texts (if even that) and claim to KNOW.

Youkilledkenny · Post by **Youkilledkenny** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:44 pm

[Replying to post 35 by polonius.advice]

Why do so many people revert to the "well if not THIS then we came from nothing" response? That seems to indicate if it wasn't God, then it was nothing. That seems short sighted to think there are only THIS or THAT available.

Blastcat · Post by **Blastcat** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:47 pm

[Replying to post 35 by polonius.advice]

[center]Just because something makes sense to me, it doesn't mean it's true.
Just because something doesn't make sense to me, it doesn't mean its false.[/center]

Blastcat wrote: What's the proof of God's existence, then?

polonius.advice wrote:
RESPONSE: Common sense.

You think that your common sense can serve as proof of god?
Maybe common sense isn't the kind of tool needed for the job.

polonius.advice wrote:
There was always something in existence

You know about "always"?
Some people think they know about "always".

I'm very skeptical of these kinds of INCREDIBLE claims.

polonius.advice wrote:
which had, in some way.

Probably some magical way.
Right?

polonius.advice wrote:
to contain all that was subsequently going to exist,

The whole universe was "contained" in your god?
Some pregnancy!!

I wonder how long the gestation period was and just who it was that crammed the universe INTO god. ( or impregnated god )

polonius.advice wrote:
or we would have to have had creation from nothing.

How do you know the universe didn't come from nothing?
I'd guess.... you really don't.

I'd guess... you are guessing.

If the universe was CONTAINED in God... and god is eternal in the past.. then the universe was contained eternally in the past, or God created it from nothing.. and .. apparently, that's not allowed. Your explanation could generate maybe a dozen more questions like that.

When an explanation is way less understandable than what it tries to explain.. that's a failure. You may want to try again.

I think you just said that the universe existed eternally in the past but was "contained" in a universe container that you seem to call "God".

How very odd.
But it's even odder to me that you would EVER claim to know that.

I think you're just guessing, right?

rikuoamero · Post by **rikuoamero** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:11 pm

[Replying to post 38 by Blastcat]

You know about "always"?
Some people think they know about "always".

I'm very skeptical of these kinds of INCREDIBLE claims.

Technically, polonius is right there. If we take 'always' to mean 'throughout all of time', existence has occurred throughout all of time, from the moment time itself began at the Big Bang.
In other words...there has never been a moment in time where no thing has existed.

Blastcat · Post by **Blastcat** » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:59 pm

[center]

No time like the time that wasn't before time began to start a plan, or something like that.[/center]

rikuoamero wrote:
Technically, polonius is right there. If we take 'always' to mean 'throughout all of time', existence has occurred throughout all of time, from the moment time itself began at the Big Bang.
In other words...there has never been a moment in time where no thing has existed.

Oh, ok.

I thought he meant "always" as eternally in the past as God has been sometimes described, you know.. before the Big Bang banged God hanged with the angels.

I took "always" for "forever".

You are saying that "always" means "since we think that time itself began". Nothing at all existed before there ever was a before anything existed.

That would mean that God began at the Big Bang, too.
I hardly think apologists would agree with that.

Although.. I seem to recall Willy Craig saying something like that.. God might have existed in potentiality but only became IN EXISTENCE at the same time as time began. Which God began. At the same time as he did. In eternity.

( I think I don't have it quite right )

Debating Christianity and Religion

Besides 'because the bible says so'....

Besides 'because the bible says so'....

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