When do we accept God's utter defeat?

[Willum]

According to the Bible, Satan defeated God ~10,000 years ago, instilling death, evil, and imperfection into the world.

God was unable to do anything about it, except of course, punish the victims. Which he has done according to the Bible many times, including a terracide, and the promise of one to come.

We hear songs and such about his triumph and victory, but let's face it; God was completely trounced by Satan, and the only thing we've heard from him is a good talk and excuses. The sending of his son, didn't really do anything measurable, except fanfare.

So assuming the Bible is true and all that, but taking it it in the light of history, and with a grain of salt, just how long before we acknowledge God lost at the starting line, and has been defeated at every turn, since?

What does this really say about the entity?

[1213]

Satan vies to despoil creation by getting Eve to eat the apple.
He succeeds;

Satan: 1
God: 0

God allowed people to have opportunity to know evil. I think it is not lose for God, if people use their freedom. It may be loss for people, but I don’t think it is a loss for God. By what the Bible tells, God doesn’t need people. Also, eating the “apple� didn’t do any permanent damage, it only made possible this lesson. (Genesis doesn’t even really speak about apple, if we read it accurately.)

God can't fix the problem, demonstration of Power:
Satan: 2
God: 0

What problem? That people can know also evil? And on what basis He can’t fix the “problem�?

God has to increasingly destroy more and more:
Cities:
Satan: 4
God: 0

It is people who lose in that, not God. Also, in Biblical point of view cities can be replaced and it is not the end of any important thing, if some city is destoyed.

The Nephilim and the Flood:
Satan: 5
God: 0

Again, no loss for God, but for those who lose their life.

Sacrifice of his son to save a minuscule amount of people from Satan:
Satan: 6
God: 0

Actually, it is not saving from Satan, but saving from death that is wage of sin. Satan really doesn’t have anyone, only certain defeat.

The next thing God intends to do is destroy the planet, when Satan wins again:
Satan: 7
God: 0

What Satan wins? He has certain destruction waiting, nothing else. And God can be without this world, it is no loss for Him, especially when He has ability to create worlds. Destruction of this planet is loss for those people that has only this planet and nothing more.

God is the one doing all the breaking.

And in earlier parts you said it is Satan who is doing the damage. So, who it is really that is breaking?

All in all, I think you should rather say “Satan 7, people 0�. People are unfortunately easily deceived, but luckily it is not the end for people. End comes, if people don’t repent, after they know they have done wrongly.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 41 by 1213]

I think you'll find this counter-argument falls apart if you assume Satan has goals.
Once you do that, you can adjust your own perspective and review your statements.

It should cause you to challenge the assumptions you made and see that there must be other options, whether you see them right now or not.

Would you agree that Satan wanted to despoil creation?
Yes.

Did he succeed?
Yes.

Are only a few going to be saved by Jesus?
Yes, that's what scripture says.

So, this reveals quite few paradoxes in the Bible - paradoxes, you should recognize require resolving. Like, it no longer seems Satan is the weaker of the two...

Thoughts?

[1213]

Would you agree that Satan wanted to despoil creation?
Yes.

On basis of what the Bible says, I would rather say, Satan wanted to deceive people. And the goal of deceiving seems to have been to kill people. And I have understood this is the reason why Bible calls Satan also murderer. And some have suggested that the reason for that was and is that Satan is jealous about what God gave to humans.

Did he succeed?
Yes.

It seems to me that Satan managed to deceive. But I don’t think he managed to despoil creation, because things seem to be going as God has set things to go.

Are only a few going to be saved by Jesus?
Yes, that's what scripture says.

Even if only few will get the eternal life, as the Bible tells, does it make this life not valuable? Is your life worthless or despoiled, if you don’t get the eternal life?

So, this reveals quite few paradoxes in the Bible - paradoxes, you should recognize require resolving. Like, it no longer seems Satan is the weaker of the two...

Thoughts?

I don’t see any Biblical reason to think God is weaker. He allowed people to have freedom and He allowed people to reject Him and truth and love. And if we believe what the Bible tells, Satan can’t do anything, if God doesn’t allow it. I think person must be strong to give freedom and life also for those who hate Him.

Obviously, it is sad, if some people reject God and choose Godless life, but I think that was the opportunity God wanted to give. And even if Satan deceives, it is people themselves who make the decision.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 43 by 1213]

It seems to me that Satan managed to deceive. But I don’t think he managed to despoil creation, because things seem to be going as God has set things to go.

Yeah, I don't want to mix topics up - the default interpretation is that God was angry when Satan had Eve then Adam despoil creation. NOT that it was something God wanted.

Even if only few will get the eternal life, as the Bible tells, does it make this life not valuable? Is your life worthless or despoiled, if you don’t get the eternal life?

Essentially what you are saying is God didn't want eternal life for everyone. You need to elaborate this one more - it certainly makes it more valuable to those that make it, but less valuable to a God who doesn't want everyone there.

I don’t see any Biblical reason to think God is weaker. He allowed people to have freedom and He allowed people to reject Him and truth and love. And if we believe what the Bible tells, Satan can’t do anything, if God doesn’t allow it. I think person must be strong to give freedom and life also for those who hate Him.

He did not allow people to reject him, that is something Satan inflicted. Satan did do something - manipulated Eve into a bite. Despoiling creation.

Obviously, it is sad, if some people reject God and choose Godless life, but I think that was the opportunity God wanted to give. And even if Satan deceives, it is people themselves who make the decision.

Sad? One of the things I am grateful for every time I sign on is there is no Judeo-Christian construct. It is wonderful people choose a non-JD life. People relying on themselves to make THIS world better, instead of competing for a few seats in the next life, one that can't be shown to be there.

Anyway, good attempt to change the topic.

It is clear Satan acted against God's will.
It is clear Satan won every conflict documented in the Bible, except maybe Job.

So, do you accept God was utterly defeated? Or explain how he won? Again, just because he says so, is a lot like Hitler claiming he won WWII.

Observation proves otherwise...

[1213]

Yeah, I don't want to mix topics up - the default interpretation is that God was angry when Satan had Eve then Adam despoil creation. NOT that it was something God wanted.

Even if we think people have despoiled this “life� with their stupid decisions, I think it can’t be seen as defeat for God, because He has allowed that to happen and didn’t really want to prevent it at any cost. Obviously, he knew it could be easier for people not to choose this path, but He wanted that people have this chance and if people choose that, I think it is not defeat for God. I think the reason who God expelled people to this playground is that here people can do anything, because nothing from here can destroy soul and all this is just a lesson about God and right. If people despoil, it is not a problem, because this is just like a playground, not the real life.

Essentially what you are saying is God didn't want eternal life for everyone. You need to elaborate this one more - it certainly makes it more valuable to those that make it, but less valuable to a God who doesn't want everyone there.

Bible tells that God wants to give eternal life only for righteous. And I understand it, unrighteous people would make eternal life eternal hell for everyone. And I don’t think it can be said it is less valuable to God then. In Biblical point of view everything is from God, if He needs something, He can make it.

He did not allow people to reject him, that is something Satan inflicted. Satan did do something - manipulated Eve into a bite. Despoiling creation.

How can you say He didn’t allow people to reject Him? If He would not have allowed that, He would not have even given that possibility.

And do you really think that knowledge of good and evil despoils people?

It is clear Satan acted against God's will.
It is clear Satan won every conflict documented in the Bible, except maybe Job.

So, do you accept God was utterly defeated? Or explain how he won? Again, just because he says so, is a lot like Hitler claiming he won WWII.

Observation proves otherwise...

It is clear that many people have acted against God’s will also. I think it is not a loss for God and sorry, I don’t see Satan winning anything. He lost his place in heaven and he loses his life in the end. For him everything is downhill all the way till the end. If he manages to lure many people with him to death, it is defeat for those people, not for God who has given that opportunity for people who hate Him.

God loves people, so obviously, He hopes all the best for them, but apparently, He doesn’t want to force people to be with Him eternally, which I think is also love to allow people to leave.

But what could God even win in this? Everything is from Him according to the Bible. I think it is people only who can win in this, because they can gain something that wouldn’t exist without God.

And I think it can’t be said He lost, when people rejected Him, because He had given that chance and didn’t really try to prevent people to choose what they love. And interestingly, every move people and Satan has made, seem to serve God eventually. Because of the fruit episode, all people have now possibility to understand well what evil truly means. And I don’t think it is bad or loss for God.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 45 by 1213]

Even if we think people have despoiled this “life� with their stupid decisions, I think it can’t be seen as defeat for God, because He has allowed that to happen and didn’t really want to prevent it at any cost.

Like I said, I don't wish to discuss God being a repulsive entity in this topic, his allowing evil has other threads devoted to it. This OP is about Gods talking game being propaganda, and assuming the actions are true.

So look at Satan seducing Adam and Eve, and not consider God's wound-licking explanation.

The rest of your post either is non-sequitur, or is ignoring the premise of the OP.

[ttruscott]

Are only a few going to be saved by Jesus?
Yes, that's what scripture says.

So, this reveals quite few paradoxes in the Bible - paradoxes, you should recognize require resolving. Like, it no longer seems Satan is the weaker of the two...
Thoughts?

The vast majority of HIS creation accepted HIS claims to be their GOD and HIS salvation if they should ever sin, becoming HIS elect. Only a few chose to rebel against HIM and so became demonic, passed over for election. Some of the elect feeling sorry for the non-elect rebelled against the judgement of their now demonic friends (think Eve and the serpent) and so became evil themselves needing to be brought to repentance and salvation.

While only a tiny portion of HIS creation chose to be demonic even fewer chose to rebel against the judgement so on earth where all sinners were sent to live together, few are saved and many are doomed but in the bigger picture, Satan got very few to follow him in his rebellion.

The paradox is built on the fallacy that the earth contains the whole of HIS creation...the billions of billions of elect holy angels must also be counted.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 47 by ttruscott]

Hi, I am pretty sure this topic is NOT about fallen angels. I am fairly certain, very little is said about the Angel Fall.

Please stay on topic.

That a fallen angel, or Satan, the one in the Bible, ate God's lunch, and God declared victory, is closer to topic.

V/R