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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:46 pm
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God Creates Evil?

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"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

-Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)


The Hebrew word for "evil" in this passage is Strong's Hebrew #7451 "Ra" which is defined as "bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun"

Christians try to say that this verse is not really talking about natural evil, or "calamity" (they argue this because peace isn't the opposite of evil), not moral evil, never mind the fact that the word appears in these passages:

Genesis 2:17 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (ra), thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."


Genesis 6:5 "And GOD saw that the wickedness (ra) of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil (ra) continually."

Genesis 13:13 "But the men of Sodom were wicked (ra) and sinners before the LORD exceedingly."

1 Kings 16:30 "And Ahab the son of Omri did evil (ra) in the sight of the LORD above all that were before him."

And even more troubling for Christians is this:

"Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech..."

-Judges 9:23 (KJV)


"But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee. Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well."

-I Samuel 16:14-16 (KJV)


"And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and there was a javelin in Saul's hand."

-I Samuel 18:10 (KJV)


"And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand."

-I Samuel 19:9 (KJV)


And like this previous passages, the word "ra" appears.

To any Torah believing Jews, is the KJV Bible right to translate "Ra" as "evil" in the KJV?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:10 pm
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Re: God Creates Evil?

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ProLifeSkeptic wrote:



And like this previous passages, the word "ra" appears.

To any Torah believing Jews, is the KJV Bible right to translate "Ra" as "evil" in the KJV?


That is a very standard translation.. and has been for centuries (even longer than the KJV)

That is the word that is used in Rashi's commentary. Rashi was a medieval commentator that lived in the 12th century.

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15976#showrashi=true

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:07 am
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I have 2 questions. When did evil actually begin? And was it necessary?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:12 am
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Re: God Creates Evil?

Like this post (2): ttruscott, William
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[quote="ProLifeSkeptic"]
Quote:
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

-Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)


The Hebrew word for "evil" in this passage is Strong's Hebrew #7451 "Ra" which is defined as "bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun"


There is a serious linguistic error here. The word Ra' is not defined as "bad or evil" . It is translated as equivalent to the English "bad" or "evil". The terms "tov" and "ra'" are actually defined contextually in the first two chapters of HaTorah. If one uses that context when translating those terms, one avoids the problems related with using "best fit" translations that are derived from other cultures.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:47 pm
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Revelations won wrote:

I have 2 questions. When did evil actually begin? And was it necessary?


That is a big debate. One of the mainstream answers is has to do with free will, and the having to be able to reject evil to do to so you can lead a more sanctified life. You can't exercise the option of doing good, unless you can have the option of doing bad too. It is via the option of doing good and rejecting evil that allows a person to live a more sanctified life, and to get closer to God.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:25 pm
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Revelations won wrote:

I have 2 questions. When did evil actually begin? And was it necessary?


imCo
1. Evil started when the first person made in the image of GOD chose by their free will to reject YHWH's claims to be GOD. Since first implies greater commitment to the idea and greater commitment has greater power, I think this was probably Satan.

2, No, evil was not necessary at any time for any reason. When, as per Col 1:23, YHWH made public HIS claims to be our creator GOD and first preached the gospel of salvation to all who would accept HIS deity and put their faith in the salvation to be found in HIS Son if they should ever sin in the future, IF everyone created in HIS image had chosen by their free will to accept HIS claims and put their faith in the Son then the heavenly state of full communion called the marriage to the Son would have been instituted at that time and no evil would ever have been created.

Both holiness and evil are only by choice. There was never any necessity for anyone to choose evil or holiness - we chose without coercion or constraint what we thought would give us the most happiness in our lives.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Sun May 14, 2017 3:35 pm
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I asked 2 questions:

I have 2 questions. When did evil actually begin? And was it necessary?

Thanks Goat for your great response quoted below:

"That is a big debate. One of the mainstream answers is has to do with free will, and the having to be able to reject evil to do to so you can lead a more sanctified life. You can't exercise the option of doing good, unless you can have the option of doing bad too. It is via the option of doing good and rejecting evil that allows a person to live a more sanctified life, and to get closer to God.".

I agree with you, for if we did not have agency or the power of choice we could not achieve that which God has placed us here in the mortal probation. As I see it, the eternal power of agency or free will is the catalyst which empowers us to determine our destiny.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Sun May 14, 2017 3:55 pm
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I am responding to ttruscott's answer to my 2 questions:

I have 2 questions. When did evil actually begin? And was it necessary?

You said:
imCo
1. Evil started when the first person made in the image of GOD chose by their free will to reject YHWH's claims to be GOD. Since first implies greater commitment to the idea and greater commitment has greater power, I think this was probably Satan.

Reply: As applied to us, did not evil begin when Lucifer who was in heaven before the creation of this earth, begin when he rebelled against God's plan of salvation for his premortal spirit children?

2, No, evil was not necessary at any time for any reason. When, as per Col 1:23, YHWH made public HIS claims to be our creator GOD and first preached the gospel of salvation to all who would accept HIS deity and put their faith in the salvation to be found in HIS Son if they should ever sin in the future, IF everyone created in HIS image had chosen by their free will to accept HIS claims and put their faith in the Son then the heavenly state of full communion called the marriage to the Son would have been instituted at that time and no evil would ever have been created.

Reply: As I see it, there must needs be the force of evil as a necessary component in order for us to exercise the eternal God given power of agency for our ultimate development.

Both holiness and evil are only by choice. There was never any necessity for anyone to choose evil or holiness - we chose without coercion or constraint what we thought would give us the most happiness in our lives.
_________________
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.


Reply: There must needs be an opposition in all things, for if this balance did not exist, then wherein could man be able to choose or distinguish good from evil?

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

Reply: I find your last statement interesting and you make a very valuable point. I think this point should be articulated with even more detail. Thank you.

Kindest regards,
RT

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Sun May 14, 2017 5:35 pm
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Re: God Creates Evil?

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[Replying to post 1 by ProLifeSkeptic]

All you have shown is that the word has multiple meanings that must be ascertained through context, comparison to other verses and the leading of the Holy Spirit.

That one of many meanings is proper for one verse doesn't make that one meaning the only meaning for every verse...sheesh.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Sun May 14, 2017 6:17 pm
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Revelations won wrote:

I am responding to ttruscott's answer to my 2 questions:

As applied to us, did not evil begin when Lucifer who was in heaven before the creation of this earth, begin when he rebelled against God's plan of salvation for his premortal spirit children?


Yes, I agree that is when evil began. HE took the concept and made it real in his nature when he chose by his free will to reject YHWH and HIS promises.

But then I must digress: his rebellion was against YHWH's claims to be our creator GOD and HIS promises of election to heaven by salvation from any and all sins as found in the divine Son, the Christ. Is your contention, which I've never heard before, a Catholic thing? It was, in my estimation, some of the elect who rebelled against the judgement of the satanic demons which forced the postponement of the judgement day until they could be redeemed and sanctified according to HIS promise, forcing us to live with the satanic reprobate until we quit our stubbornness.

Quote:
Ted wrote:
2, No, evil was not necessary at any time for any reason. When, as per Col 1:23, YHWH made public HIS claims to be our creator GOD and first preached the gospel of salvation to all who would accept HIS deity and put their faith in the salvation to be found in HIS Son if they should ever sin in the future, IF everyone created in HIS image had chosen by their free will to accept HIS claims and put their faith in the Son then the heavenly state of full communion called the marriage to the Son would have been instituted at that time and no evil would ever have been created.


Reply: As I see it, there must needs be the force of evil as a necessary component in order for us to exercise the eternal God given power of agency for our ultimate development.
Thank you for you opinion, which I do not share thinking rather that there is no 'force of evil' until one chooses evil and then his mind and desires are clouded by the addicting, enslaving attribute of evil and he looses his free will.

Quote:
Ted wrote:
Both holiness and evil are only by choice. There was never any necessity for anyone to choose evil or holiness - we chose without coercion or constraint what we thought would give us the most happiness in our lives.

Reply: There must needs be an opposition in all things, for if this balance did not exist, then wherein could man be able to choose or distinguish good from evil?
A necessity of opposition in all things means the necessity for evil to exist from GOD like light from a flame...yet HE is light in whom is no darkness at all.

Before the creation was YHWH a perfect Unity or not or a perfect singularity if you prefer. Opposition means a house divided and HE is NOT divided at all. GOD has no use for evil. HE hated it and fought it since its inception in Satan's desires.

IF everyone had accepted HIS deity when HE made HIS claims to be our creator GOD, then there would have been no evil in HIS creation and the heavenly marriage would have started at that exact time.

IF no elect person under HIS promise of salvation from all sin, had not rebelled against HIS call for the judgement of the satanic non-elect who rejected HIS claims to be our creator GOD and HIS promises of salvation, then the judgement would have happened in that second and the whole of creation cleansed of all evil (no prison earth would have been necessary nor any life of suffering or death) and the heavenly marriage would have began in the next instant.

No force of evil is necessary to understand that some just did not like the idea of someone claiming to be above them without proof to be our GOD...

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