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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:49 pm
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Are School Vouchers a Violation of the US Constitution?

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The voucher program is spreading. With DeVos as Trump's secretary of Education, a voucher supporter, the program will be more enabled. Is this a good idea, or is it the beginning of the end of the public school system?

Is this what Jefferson had in mind when he initiated public education in America. Back then only the elite received an education. It appears that is where we may now be heading.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:10 pm
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Re: Are School Vouchers a Violation of the US Constitution?

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2Dbunk wrote:

Back then only the elite received an education. It appears that is where we may now be heading.


I would need more information on how the voucher program works. Will people be granted vouchers based on their income, etc.?

If that's the case then it would seem that the voucher program would favor the rich.

Without knowing the specifics of how a voucher program actually works it's impossible to say what it would mean.

It's my understanding that the reason Betsy DeVos favors vouchers is so public education money can then be used to support private (and specifically religious) schools.

So her motivation is to get religion and creationism back into the classroom funded with taxpayer dollars. That's my understanding of her ultimate goal.

That alone is probably unconstitutional simply because the state would then be funding specific religious schools.

On the other hand one could argue that the state isn't demanding that vouchers only be given to religious schools, or schools that favor a specific religion. Betsy Devos, and other right-wing Christians who think like her probably aren't realizing that this proposal can then also be used to support schools based on any religions or ideologies.

Betsy Devos is just trying to find a way to get out from under having the government able to dictate that religion cannot be taught in the schools. Although, actually that should be carried over with the voucher system. In other words, schools that teach religion should be ineligible for public vouchers.

More attention needs to be given to this. It might do well to bring this to the attention of American Atheists, if they aren't already aware of Devos' plans.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:50 pm
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Re: Are School Vouchers a Violation of the US Constitution?

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[Replying to post 1 by 2Dbunk]

The short answer is that vouchers are legal if the Supreme Court says they are legal.
Unfortunately we have a long history in the US of giving preferential treatment and tax dollars to religions and private religious schools. This current government is intent on destroying public education and turning over those billions of dollars to private businesses.
Of course this will be a massive failure, as we already see. But it won't matter. They will take the money for the nest 8-10 years, drain the public school system and then leave.
It is called piracy.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:54 pm
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Re: Are School Vouchers a Violation of the US Constitution?

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[Replying to post 2 by Divine Insight]

The recent history of privatization of schools has been a sad one. These private schools take tax dollars, then refuse to educate any child who has serious disabilities are who may be a discipline problem. As a result, the public schools are left with the most difficult students and less money to deal with their problems.
Even then, there is no data that shows even after hand picking the students these private schools do better on standard tests of achievements.
But one thing thy do. Make a tremendous profit for the CEOs and the share holders.All with tax dollars.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:42 pm
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Re: Are School Vouchers a Violation of the US Constitution?

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2Dbunk wrote:

The voucher program is spreading. With DeVos as Trump's secretary of Education, a voucher supporter, the program will be more enabled. Is this a good idea, or is it the beginning of the end of the public school system?

Is this what Jefferson had in mind when he initiated public education in America. Back then only the elite received an education. It appears that is where we may now be heading.


As the US Constitution does not even mention education, or give the Federal Government specific authority to be involved with it, I find the Department of Education to be an unconstitutional endeavor in the first place. States have mention of education in their constitutions, so it is a state rights issue in my mind.

As it relates to vouchers, it depends on the program. Some programs allow schools in low rated school districts to attend school in a better public district. Those programs I can get on board with, depending on the particulars. Any money that is deferred to a private school, religious or not, I have a huge problem with.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:05 pm
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Re: Are School Vouchers a Violation of the US Constitution?

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2Dbunk wrote:

The voucher program is spreading. With DeVos as Trump's secretary of Education, a voucher supporter, the program will be more enabled. Is this a good idea, or is it the beginning of the end of the public school system?

Is this what Jefferson had in mind when he initiated public education in America. Back then only the elite received an education. It appears that is where we may now be heading.


1. The US is the only industrialized country in the world that does not publicly fund its religious schools. Probably, this was because a power grab by the Protestants in the early 1900s led to a internationally unique SCOTUS decision to separate religious education from secular education. No other country interprets freedom of religion this way, and I think our way is a bit on the silly side. We need not fear a religious education, if we can trust the success in other countries.

2. The Devos voucher program is a bad idea, IMO, but it is not the beginning of the end of the public school system. The question to ask is why would anyone choose a religious education over a public education. Unless you homeschool, you'll never get an education that reinforces what you teach at home. For myself and my family, we choose religious education for many reasons, but one is that public education focuses too much on academia and high-paying jobs (and these are good things!). We believe public service is a virtue that ought to be taught in K-12 education.

3. I believe your fear of elitist education is healthy, but misguided. Public funding of religious education appears in all other industrialized countries without fear of casting away the poor.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Thu May 11, 2017 12:02 pm
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Re: Are School Vouchers a Violation of the US Constitution?

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[Replying to post 1 by 2Dbunk]

I don't know much about the American educational system, but I do believer personally that affordable education is a good thing. There are still many countries where going to school is beyond the means of many and that's sad.

JW

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Thu May 11, 2017 2:14 pm
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Re: Are School Vouchers a Violation of the US Constitution?

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2Dbunk wrote:

The voucher program is spreading. With DeVos as Trump's secretary of Education, a voucher supporter, the program will be more enabled. Is this a good idea, or is it the beginning of the end of the public school system?

Is this what Jefferson had in mind when he initiated public education in America. Back then only the elite received an education. It appears that is where we may now be heading.

There is something to be said about a voucher system in that it allows students access to schools they would not otherwise have access to. This can have some benefits to those in lower Socio economic demographics to escape their terrible public school systems.

However it is not always implemented this way and DeVos's own history in the voucher system isn't encouraging as she has seemingly been single minded in her advocacy.

Another benefit is that it would theoretically increase cometition and empower educators to try new things in education. This is also a double edged sword though as not everything educators try will work.

The history shows tha while there have been many successes with voucher systems there have also been many failures and it doesn't necessarily cut down the cost of education either.

I would be hesitant to push such a radical shift in our education system. A more pragmatic approach would simply have a small voucher program for those in the lower Socio economic brackets and model our public school systems on the most successful approaches.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Thu May 11, 2017 2:34 pm
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I am not in favor of mass public education in the first place. As with many government programs, the public school system tends to undermine the family unit, by removing the responsibility for education from the parents. Much of our public educational system is seen as extended daycare. When schools are closed, the primary concern is usually the inconveniencing of working parents, not the education of the children. Though I do think that vouchers add needed market forces on the public education system, I don't see them making enough of a difference to overcome the influence of vested interests in the current system

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Thu May 11, 2017 3:25 pm
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[Replying to post 9 by bluethread]

Are all parents capable of educating their children in physics, geometry, calculus, trigonometry, and other subjects? It is my assessment as a parent that has a kid in the public school system that parents are encouraged to participate and take responsibility in their kids education. I volunteer and help out with my sons class actively as well as tutoring other kids learning to read.

Specifically what evidence do you have that assets that public education undermines family units?

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