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JehovahsWitness
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:54 pm  Created immortal (indestructable)? Reply with quote

To my knowledge "immortality" is only spoken of as being a reward for certain faithful. What is the scriptural basis for saying "humans" were originally created immortal*?

- do you believe Satan is immortal?
- do you believe the wicked are immortal?

- do you believe God can destroy them (as in put an end to their existence) but will never choose to do this?

- do you believe God cannot (does not have the ability to) destroy them (put an end to their existence)?

Why?


*by immortal I mean basically "indestructable"
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 201: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:12 pm
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Re: Created immortal (indestructable)?

Like this post (1): rikuoamero
[Replying to post 200 by onewithhim]

onewithhim wrote:


BEGET: TO PROCREATE AS THE FATHER; SIRE; TO PRODUCE; CAUSE




Blatcats's first law states that for every begetting there is an equal and opposite re-begetting.


To get or to beget: that is the reception
The bee gets the pollen, we get the honey
I blast like a jet
I’m not quite done yet
Being beset by the be all and end all of what, I quite forgot
I begot, I got what I got, it’s not what it’s not
Be getting is getting er done, one more glass and I’m gone
Beget my son, whatever that was
Whatever the cause

We can re-write the clause
To make it sound
Like something profound

But it's not.



Smile

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 202: Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:28 pm
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Re: Created immortal (indestructable)?

Like this post (1): Blastcat
[Replying to post 201 by Blastcat]

Hey, you're right up there with Bill (Shakespeare)!

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 203: Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:42 pm
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To Claire Evans:

Just wanted to reply to a few of your comments.

(1) You wrote that the Trinity concept is in the Bible. Where?

(2) You say that we "won't find logic associated with faith." I disagree. Logic is always a good thing to appeal to.

(3) Regarding your statement about the number of atheists: I say that there are atheists in spite of logic that is indeed associated with the ways of the Lord. He gave us the ability to reason, and it's my opinion that He wants us to do that. He never does things that have no logic.

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD." (Isaiah 1:18, KJV)


(4) In response to your question of "how did Satan get his power before humans when he needs human suffering to be sustained?".....I ask how did you arrive at the conclusion that he needs human suffering to be sustained? Where did that come from? Satan, according to the Scriptures, was created as a good angel and, since he had free will, eventually decided to become independent of God and to run his own show. He convinced a part of the good angels to switch sides, if you will. Then we had demons---bad angels. That's not difficult to understand.

I am looking forward to your comments and answers to my questions.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 204: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:01 am
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onewithhim wrote:

To Claire Evans:

Just wanted to reply to a few of your comments.

(1) You wrote that the Trinity concept is in the Bible. Where?



2 Corinthians 3:17

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

So we see here that the Lord is the Holy Spirit.

1 Timothy 4:10New International Version (NIV)

10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

We know that Jesus is our saviour so Jesus and God are interchangeable.

Likewise...

Luke 1:47

and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God John 1:1


..the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ...gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity.. Titus 2:13-14


"...CHRIST JESUS...being in the FORM OF GOD, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL WITH GOD: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."--Philippians 2:5-8


For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (1 John 5:7)

1 John 5:7




onewithhim wrote:
(2) You say that we "won't find logic associated with faith." I disagree. Logic is always a good thing to appeal to.



What is logical about a relationship and faith in God? Please logically explain how that can be achieved? Faith and reason aren't mutually exclusive but logic is not the same as reason.

The primary difference between logic and reason is that reason is subject to personal opinion, whereas logic is an actual science that follows clearly defined rules and tests for critical thinking. Logic also seeks tangible, visible or audible proof of a sound thought process by reasoning.

If one wants to find God in a scientific manner, they will be disappointed.


onewithhim wrote:
(3) Regarding your statement about the number of atheists: I say that there are atheists in spite of logic that is indeed associated with the ways of the Lord. He gave us the ability to reason, and it's my opinion that He wants us to do that. He never does things that have no logic.

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD." (Isaiah 1:18, KJV)



Reason isn't logic.


onewithhim wrote:
(4) In response to your question of "how did Satan get his power before humans when he needs human suffering to be sustained?".....I ask how did you arrive at the conclusion that he needs human suffering to be sustained? Where did that come from? Satan, according to the Scriptures, was created as a good angel and, since he had free will, eventually decided to become independent of God and to run his own show. He convinced a part of the good angels to switch sides, if you will. Then we had demons---bad angels. That's not difficult to understand.

I am looking forward to your comments and answers to my questions.


Have you not experienced that for yourself? That the more Satan manages to torment a person, the stronger he gets? I know that from experience. Demons need negative energy to replenish their energy:

http://www.spiritdaily.net/emotionsspirits.htm

Satan's presence in the Garden of Gethsemane was strong because Jesus was tormented by fear. Satan was feeding off the negative energy of fear. Once God gave Jesus peace, Satan left because he can't feed off positive energy exuded by peace.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 205: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:40 am
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Like this post (1): onewithhim
[Replying to post 204 by Claire Evans]




Logic vs reason
The definitions



Claire Evans wrote:


What is logical about a relationship and faith in God? Please logically explain how that can be achieved? Faith and reason aren't mutually exclusive but logic is not the same as reason.



I've never heard that one before.

I use the word "reasoning" to mean "the action of thinking about something in a logical, sensible way"

Bad reasoning, of course, is bad logic and vice versa.


Claire Evans wrote:


The primary difference between logic and reason is that reason is subject to personal opinion, whereas logic is an actual science that follows clearly defined rules and tests for critical thinking.



You are making a distinction between good reasoning and bad reasoning... not really logic and reasoning.

Logic and reasoning are really quite synonymous.

But I do like your definition of logic, though.
I'm not sure I'd call it a science... but maybe it is.

If math is a science, then logic is.
I call both math and logic thinking tools.. that science USES...

Not quite sure if I would call math and logic sciences... I'd have to look it up.


Claire Evans wrote:


Logic also seeks tangible, visible or audible proof of a sound thought process by reasoning.



There you go.... logic uses reasoning.. reasoning uses logic.. yeah.
Same same.

Reasoning and logic are examples of good thinking.
I wonder if religious people care at all about that kind of thing.


Claire Evans wrote:


If one wants to find God in a scientific manner, they will be disappointed.



There's my answer.
It doesn't seem that they do care very much.

So, reasoning and logic are out the door when we want to "find" God.
What's left?

Ouija board?

Emotional appeals?
Roll of the dice?



Smile


Last edited by Blastcat on Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:14 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 206: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:59 am
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[Replying to post 204 by Claire Evans]

Mind if I add a comment about Logic ? Just thinking , in my opinion the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus is illogical.
If it is can you explain to me?
Taking this thought a step further though if not for this incredible event if not for the crucifixion and resurrection there would probably be no such religion as Christianity. That's kind of what Paul said too , don't ya think? There isn't much else that separates Christianity from Judaism. Most of what Jesus taught was only a refinement of Torah Prophets and Wisdom litterateur. With out the illogical and miraculous crucifixion and resurrection there would be no Christianity.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 207: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:11 am
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[Replying to post 206 by dio9]




Logic vs crucifixion



dio9 wrote:


Mind if I add a comment about Logic ? Just thinking , in my opinion the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus is illogical.



It's right to ask for her logic and NOT her reasoning... she thinks they aren't the same.
I love logic, myself.

Can't get enough of that good stuff.
I can't wait for hers.


dio9 wrote:


If it is can you explain to me?



I'm quite sure that most hard core Christians think every bit of the Bible perfect in every way. You might have a bit of a time following her reasoning logic
though.

Good luck.
You asked for it.


dio9 wrote:


Taking this thought a step further though if not for this incredible event if not for the crucifixion and resurrection there would probably be no such religion as Christianity.



A lot of Christians would agree with that.
If the resurrection didn't really happen... no point to Christianity at all..

I would agree.
It seems like a very crucial event.

The logic of it escapes me completely.
I can't wait for her take on it.


Smile

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 208: Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:16 pm
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Claire Evans wrote:

onewithhim wrote:

To Claire Evans:

Just wanted to reply to a few of your comments.

(1) You wrote that the Trinity concept is in the Bible. Where?



2 Corinthians 3:17

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

So we see here that the Lord is the Holy Spirit.

1 Timothy 4:10New International Version (NIV)

10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

We know that Jesus is our saviour so Jesus and God are interchangeable.

Likewise...

Luke 1:47

and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God John 1:1


..the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ...gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity.. Titus 2:13-14


"...CHRIST JESUS...being in the FORM OF GOD, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL WITH GOD: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."--Philippians 2:5-8


For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (1 John 5:7)

1 John 5:7




onewithhim wrote:
(2) You say that we "won't find logic associated with faith." I disagree. Logic is always a good thing to appeal to.



What is logical about a relationship and faith in God? Please logically explain how that can be achieved? Faith and reason aren't mutually exclusive but logic is not the same as reason.

The primary difference between logic and reason is that reason is subject to personal opinion, whereas logic is an actual science that follows clearly defined rules and tests for critical thinking. Logic also seeks tangible, visible or audible proof of a sound thought process by reasoning.

If one wants to find God in a scientific manner, they will be disappointed.


onewithhim wrote:
(3) Regarding your statement about the number of atheists: I say that there are atheists in spite of logic that is indeed associated with the ways of the Lord. He gave us the ability to reason, and it's my opinion that He wants us to do that. He never does things that have no logic.

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD." (Isaiah 1:18, KJV)



Reason isn't logic.


onewithhim wrote:
(4) In response to your question of "how did Satan get his power before humans when he needs human suffering to be sustained?".....I ask how did you arrive at the conclusion that he needs human suffering to be sustained? Where did that come from? Satan, according to the Scriptures, was created as a good angel and, since he had free will, eventually decided to become independent of God and to run his own show. He convinced a part of the good angels to switch sides, if you will. Then we had demons---bad angels. That's not difficult to understand.

I am looking forward to your comments and answers to my questions.


Have you not experienced that for yourself? That the more Satan manages to torment a person, the stronger he gets? I know that from experience. Demons need negative energy to replenish their energy:

http://www.spiritdaily.net/emotionsspirits.htm

Satan's presence in the Garden of Gethsemane was strong because Jesus was tormented by fear. Satan was feeding off the negative energy of fear. Once God gave Jesus peace, Satan left because he can't feed off positive energy exuded by peace.

First of all, in 2 Corinthians 3:17 it says that the Spirit was OF the Lord; In fact, there are TWO implications of "spirit" in that verse. The first implication is that God IS Spirit---that means He is a spirit Person, not a physical one. ("God is a Spirit..." John 4:24) Then, afterward, it mentions the Spirit OF God, which means the force with which He does things. He creates, He anoints, He blesses, He relates in many ways to humans and the rest of His creation by way of His force, or, spirit.

Anyway, this does not show that the Spirit is a third member of a trinity of Gods.


Secondly, Jesus and God are NOT interchangeable. God says that he is Jehovah and there is no one else that is God. (Psalm 83:18, KJV; Isaiah 43:10,11; Psalm 36:9)

"That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the Most High over all the earth." (Psalm 83:18, KJV)

"Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am HE: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, I am Jehovah; and besides me there is no savior." (Isaiah 43:10,11, Darby)

"For with you is the source of life; by light from you we can see light." (Psalm 36:9, NWT)


Jesus also said that his Father, Jehovah, was "the only true God." (John 17:3) He didn't say "we are God."



Now, if Jehovah is the only God, and He is the Savior, how can Jesus be the Savior? He can be the Savior because JEHOVAH CHOSE HIM to do the job of coming to Earth and giving up his human life for mankind. Jesus was ANOINTED to do these things and represent Jehovah on the earth. Jesus was God's MEANS of saving mankind. The SOURCE of that plan was Jehovah. It was Jehovah who instructed Jesus as to what to do.

"The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is on me [Jesus; Luke 4:16-21], because Jehovah did anoint me to proclaim tidings to the humble, he sent me to bind the broken of heart, to proclaim to captives liberty, and to bound ones an opening of bands. To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Jehovah, and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all mourners." (Isaiah 61:1,2, Young's Literal Translation)

Did Jehovah anoint himself?

"Jesus therefore responded [to those who accused him of making himself equal to God] and said unto them, 'Verily, verily, I say to you, The Son is not able to do anything of himself, if he may not see the Father doing anything; for whatever things He may do, these also the Son doeth in like manner; for the Father doth love the Son, and doth show to him all things that He himself doeth." (John 5:19, Young's) So....Jesus LEARNED from the Father. God does not have to learn from anybody.

Jesus said: "I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to speak....The things I speak, just as the Father has told me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50) It doesn't look like Jesus and the Father, Jehovah, are one and the same. Jesus took orders from the Father.



You are being, inadvertently I'm sure, deceptive in your presentation of Titus 2:13 as showing that Jesus is God. Versions DIFFER in its rendering! For example, the New American Bible puts it this way: "As we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God [Jehovah] AND OF our savior Jesus Christ." Totally different meaning than what you presented. (That word "of" means a lot.)

John 1:1---"and the word was God"---is a mess of a translation, and I imagine St. John, who is now in heaven, cringes at the meaning trying to be conveyed by most Bible translators. The King James translation committee was so extremely biased by their own religious up-bringing that they made out the words of John to mean something he never meant! He was trying to show a DISTINCTION between "the" God and the Word. In Greek, "the" god had the definite article in front of "god." That showed that it was the only God that was being referred to. In the phrase "and the word was God," there is no definite article in front of "god," so it is correctly rendered "a god." So the Word was NOT the God. It is difficult to understand if a person doesn't know that in the Apostle John's time "god" meant any powerful, important person; the people thought of judges and political figures as "gods."

http://nwtandcoptic.blogspot.com/2008/09/translating-word-was-god-1700-years-ago...


.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 209: Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:35 pm
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Just a couple more comments, though I have commented on these points several times before, and I'm a little chagrined that my comments, apparently, weren't considered valid.

Philippians 2:6 was quoted by you to show that Jesus was equal to God. Other versions translate that verse to mean something entirely different. For example, the New American Bible, New International Version, & the New American Standard Bible, to name just a few of many, render the verse as such:

"Who, although he existed in the form of God [spirit], did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped."

"Grasped" has the meaning of taking hold of something that one did not have before.



I John 5:7 has been explained often. It was a corrupting verse, ADDED in more recent centuries....NOT in the earlier manuscripts.

Then you referred to Jesus' "fear." Jesus was never afraid. He was in agony in the Garden of Gethsemane and cried and sweat blood because he didn't want to die as a blasphemer. It wasn't the dying that he was in trepidation over, it was being considered someone who said false things about Jehovah, his Father, and being accused of claiming to be equal to God. He couldn't bear bringing reproach on his Father.



.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 210: Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:55 pm
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dio9 wrote:

[Replying to post 204 by Claire Evans]

Mind if I add a comment about Logic ? Just thinking , in my opinion the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus is illogical.
If it is can you explain to me?
Taking this thought a step further though if not for this incredible event if not for the crucifixion and resurrection there would probably be no such religion as Christianity. That's kind of what Paul said too , don't ya think? There isn't much else that separates Christianity from Judaism. Most of what Jesus taught was only a refinement of Torah Prophets and Wisdom litterateur. With out the illogical and miraculous crucifixion and resurrection there would be no Christianity.

True, it is illogical by non-spiritual standards, or, by solely physical, purely scientific standards. But even Science says that there are things that cannot be explained by physical, scientific means. So...can we say that something other than science could possibly explain certain phenomena? Actually, the idea that something other than scientific hard facts could explain some things that can't be explained by the scientific method is a logical idea. Could it be that something non-physical is involved? Could it be that certain things really did happen because of some unknown-to-science Force that operated on a plane higher than the physical?

I do not think this idea is illogical.

And Jesus' resurrection cannot be explained by science. It had to be something that happened by a Force that science does not see or comprehend (and that is not to say that science is useless or anti-God). If this earth, for example, eventually formed from the "Big Bang," it did so in ways that Science cannot explain, and GOOD science does not pretend to say that mindless evolution has proven to be true.

The forming of the planet and life on it, as well as the parting of the Red Sea, and the resurrection of Jesus, are all supernatural events. Any honest person would have to refrain from claiming physical explanations (which can be and have been refuted).

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