For those who still believe

[Elijah John]

Some questions.

I hear this most often from Evangelicals and Jehovah's Witnesses...seldom from Catholics or mainline Protestants.

Question 1)If you hold the position that Muslims do indeed worship a "different God", how did you arrive at this conclusion?

Through your own studies? Thinking for yourself?*

Question 2) Or is there some Evangelical "play book" instructing believers to regard Islam as worshiping a "different God"?*

Question 3) Is the phrase a "different God" a euphemism for something worse?

Quesstion 4) Do you think demonization (in this case perhaps literally) of other great world religions is God's will and any way to be a peacemaker, as Jesus expects God's children to be?

Question 5) Do we have ANY Evangelicals or Jehovah's Witnesses among us who believe that yes, Muslims worship the same God, but in a different way?

I am not a Muslim, but let me make a case that Muslims do not worship a "different God".

a) Muslims claim to worship the God of Abraham...so do Christians and Jews.

b) In Genesis, Ishmael was promised that he too would be the father of a great nation" Ishmael is widely regarded as the ancestor of the Arab people.

c) Is is such a stretch then, to believe the Arabs would have a prophet of their own?

d) the Qur'an itself teaches that God gave "Moses the Torah, King David the Psalms, and Jesus the Gospel...and has high regard for Jews and Christians as fellow "People of the Book".

e) Mohammad hated idolatry, and taught only worship of the one true God of Abraham. But he did not consider Jews and monotheistic Christians to be idolators, in fact, Muslims are allowed to marry Christians and Jews, but not polytheists.

f) Even Pope John Paul II taught that Muslims worship the same God as Christians do, but of course he also taught that does not contradict the belief that Christians have the fullness of Truth.


After considering the above, does Islam still sound to you like a religion that teaches people to worship a "different God"?

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(*I get suspicious when folks march in lock-step with no deviation)

[The Tanager]

Question 1)If you hold the position that Muslims do indeed worship a "different God", how did you arrive at this conclusion?

Through your own studies? Thinking for yourself?*

Thinking for myself.

Question 2) Or is there some Evangelical "play book" instructing believers to regard Islam as worshiping a "different God"?*

Not that I am aware of. Although, of course, there are many books that address the issue and give their take that Muslims do worship a different god.

Question 3) Is the phrase a "different God" a euphemism for something worse?

It isn't in the way I would use that phrase.

Quesstion 4) Do you think demonization (in this case perhaps literally) of other great world religions is God's will and any way to be a peacemaker, as Jesus expects God's children to be?

What do you mean by 'demonization'? I don't demonize Muslims for their different beliefs. I do think God's will is for us to pursue truth in a peaceful way. We can be peacemakers and still disagree on various issues.

Question 5) Do we have ANY Evangelicals or Jehovah's Witnesses among us who believe that yes, Muslims worship the same God, but in a different way?

Depends on how you are defining those terms, probably. Is someone labeled an evangelical or Jehovah's Witness because they ascribe to specific beliefs? Or self-labelled for whatever reason one wants? Or based on a group identification?

I am not a Muslim, but let me make a case that Muslims do not worship a "different God".

a) Muslims claim to worship the God of Abraham...so do Christians and Jews.

b) In Genesis, Ishmael was promised that he too would be the father of a great nation" Ishmael is widely regarded as the ancestor of the Arab people.

c) Is is such a stretch then, to believe the Arabs would have a prophet of their own?

d) the Qur'an itself teaches that God gave "Moses the Torah, King David the Psalms, and Jesus the Gospel...and has high regard for Jews and Christians as fellow "People of the Book".

e) Mohammad hated idolatry, and taught only worship of the one true God of Abraham. But he did not consider Jews and monotheistic Christians to be idolators, in fact, Muslims are allowed to marry Christians and Jews, but not polytheists.

f) Even Pope John Paul II taught that Muslims worship the same God as Christians do, but of course he also taught that does not contradict the belief that Christians have the fullness of Truth.

After considering the above, does Islam still sound to you like a religion that teaches people to worship a "different God"?

What of Qur'anic verses like Sura 5:17, 72-73? Those seem to paint Christians as believing wrong things about God.

Trinitarian Christians and Muslims can't believe in the same God because one says God is tri-personal and the other says God is not. How can those two concepts be of the same God?

It seems to me that Muslims would say Christians are confused about who God really is (and vice versa) and are ascribing the wrong things to God. Is that what you mean by worshiping the same God? I don't think that is an accurate way to portray the situation.

[Elijah John]

Trinitarian Christians and Muslims can't believe in the same God because one says God is tri-personal and the other says God is not. How can those two concepts be of the same God?

It seems to me that Muslims would say Christians are confused about who God really is (and vice versa) and are ascribing the wrong things to God. Is that what you mean by worshiping the same God? I don't think that is an accurate way to portray the situation.

Lot going on here. Thanks for taking it on. Allow me just focus on this for now. Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in a "tri-personal " God either...do they too, worship a "different God"?

What about other unitarian Christians, like the Christadelphians. "Different God?"

How 'bout the early Christian unitarians like the Ebionites? Or the authors of the Didache. No "tri-personal" God there either.

In fact it could even be argued that Evangelist John and the Apostle Paul did not worhsip a "tri-personal God. Certainly not Mattew, Mark, or Luke. Different God?

Arab Christians call God the Father "Allah" are they too, worshiping a "different God"?

And last but certainly not least...Jews do not see God as "tri-personal" either. Do they too worship a "different God"?

I guess I am having trouble understanding why exteme Trinitairans and Jesus-worshipers seem unable to give Muslims credit for worshiping the same God the Father at the very least.

It is true, Muslims do not worship Jesus, (though they do regard him as a prophet with a miraculous birth)

And to the degree that Christians worhip Jesus, I guess they do worship a "different God,

But I don't understand why "Allah" (THE God) has to be considered a "different God" from YHVH, and not simply YHVH under another name/title.

Unless, or course, one claims that Jesus is "the only true God" in defiance of John 17.3.

Remember, YHVH was also known as "El Shaddai" at one time.

[Elijah John]

Let me put a slightly different angle on the OP. Do Muslims and Jews then, worship the same God?

From everything I have read about both groups attitude towards each other's beliefs, I would say "yes" in spite of any current political differences.

[ttruscott]

Some questions.

I hear this most often from Evangelicals and Jehovah's Witnesses...seldom from Catholics or mainline Protestants.

Question 1)If you hold the position that Muslims do indeed worship a "different God", how did you arrive at this conclusion?

They deny His deity and His resurrection...

Quesstion 4) Do you think demonization (in this case perhaps literally) of other great world religions is God's will and any way to be a peacemaker, as Jesus expects God's children to be?

GOD is not at peace with nor bringing peace to HIS enemies, the people of the evil one sown into the world by the devil.

[Elijah John]

Some questions.

I hear this most often from Evangelicals and Jehovah's Witnesses...seldom from Catholics or mainline Protestants.

Question 1)If you hold the position that Muslims do indeed worship a "different God", how did you arrive at this conclusion?

They deny His deity and His resurrection...

Quesstion 4) Do you think demonization (in this case perhaps literally) of other great world religions is God's will and any way to be a peacemaker, as Jesus expects God's children to be?

GOD is not at peace with nor bringing peace to HIS enemies, the people of the evil one sown into the world by the devil.

Wow...OK. So yes, the Muslims deny the deity of Jesus, but they do not deny the deity of God, that would be ridiculous.

But I gotta say, you don't pull your punches, when you say (in effect) that Muslims are "the people of the evil one sown into the world by the devil"...All for not believing that Jesus is God??

If that is the case, would you say the same of Jews? Of Jehovah's Witnesses?

[The Tanager]

Lot going on here. Thanks for taking it on. Allow me just focus on this for now. Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in a "tri-personal " God either...do they too, worship a "different God"?

They do worship a different God. One God is a triune Being. Another God is definitely not a triune Being. Those beings (Gods) are clearly different. It would be the same for any non-trinitarian theists. This is why the textbooks in use in secular religion classes classify these as new religious movements, rather than treating them as another denomination of Christianity.

The movements themselves often see themselves as recovering the original Christianity and traditional Christianity being distorted Christianity, but even then there is a recognition that the God of these religions are actually different.

How 'bout the early Christian unitarians like the Ebionites? Or the authors of the Didache. No "tri-personal" God there either.

It applies to any anti-trinitarian conceptions of God. Does the Didache reject a Trinitarian view or are you just saying they don't explicitly teach that doctrine directly? It's been awhile since I've read the Didache.

In fact it could even be argued that Evangelist John and the Apostle Paul did not worhsip a "tri-personal God. Certainly not Mattew, Mark, or Luke. Different God?

And it could be argued that all of them show a multi-personal God in concept. The question is which one is a better explanation of the evidence.

Arab Christians call God the Father "Allah" are they too, worshiping a "different God"?

I call my dad 'Dad.' My mom and his college classmates call him Bob. His volleyball friends call him Chuck. They are still talking about the same being. A tri-personal being cannot be the same being as a one-personal being. If someone starts talking about my dad the professional football player, then that person isn't talking about the same person I am even if they use one of the names he is known by to those who do know him. They may think they are, but they are talking about a different person.

And last but certainly not least...Jews do not see God as "tri-personal" either. Do they too worship a "different God"?

Well, some Jews are even atheistic, but I know that is not your point. Jews today do worship a different God than Christians.

It would be different for Jews who worshipped YHWH before the supposed Incarnation. They would be in a situation like the person who thought my dad was a professional football player. They might have really been talking about the same person I was, but they had a wrong concept of that person. No, he is a well known volleyball guy in club volleyball circles. If after confronted with this correction the person still talks about Chuck the professional football player, they are talking about a different person than who I am.

I guess I am having trouble understanding why exteme Trinitairans and Jesus-worshipers seem unable to give Muslims credit for worshiping the same God the Father at the very least.

Muslims don't (or shouldn't) give us Trinitarians credit for worshiping the same God we do. And many of them don't. We are considered to be committing shirk. We are unbelievers, it seems, according to passages like Sura 5:17, 72-73.

It is true, Muslims do not worship Jesus, (though they do regard him as a prophet with a miraculous birth)

And to the degree that Christians worhip Jesus, I guess they do worship a "different God,

Oh, so we are agreed, then?

But I don't understand why "Allah" (THE God) has to be considered a "different God" from YHVH, and not simply YHVH under another name/title.

I have no problem with Christians who use the Arabic word for God. But that is a different issue than if the Muslim God is the same being as the Christian God. Or if Muslims wanted to call Allah YHVH. Or any number of names given. It's more about the concepts than just names, though. There are other Bobs and Chucks than my dad, but they aren't all the same being just because they share a name.

Let me put a slightly different angle on the OP. Do Muslims and Jews then, worship the same God?

From everything I have read about both groups attitude towards each other's beliefs, I would say "yes" in spite of any current political differences.

Of course, even within each of these labels there are disagreements over God and other things. But talking about generalities, while closer in similarity, I still think they are different concepts of God and therefore worshiping different Gods. Otherwise they would have no problem calling themselves by the same name. They clearly don't They can't both be completely right about what they teach about God because they contradict in areas.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 7 by The Tanager

Well you are consisent anyway, and make good arguments. But what I gather from your response is that you believe that Jews, Christians and Muslims each have their own God? No two of the group worship the same God, even under different names?

Tell me how Muslims and Jews essentially worship "different Gods". Especially when each group claims they worship the same God. Both groups teach absolute Monotheism, both, the ONE God of Abraham.

The Shema and Shahada both say that God is one, though the Shema addresses Israel, and the Shahada has Mohammad as God's most important prophet.

Put aside, if you will, differences in names, such as YHVH and Allah, or El Shaddai and Allah. Those differences can be attrinbuted to superficial and not essential reasons.

So what are the essential differences between the Muslim and Jewish uderstanding of God and His nature?

Their theology is essentially the same, though their histories rituals and identities as a People diverge.

Not so with Jews vs. (Trinitarian) Christians, nor (Trinitarian) Christians vs. Muslims. OK I'll give you that...throw a Divine Jesus into the mix, and yes, neither Muslims nor Jews worship a tri-personal God.

But It can certainly be argued that Jews, Muslims and unitarian (small "u") Christians all worship the same God. As William Ellery Channing stated: "The Father alone is God", and that is where they have common ground.

Also, I see what you are saying when you hold that Jews of today worship a "different God" because they have rejected God's new and explicit revelation in Jesus. Though I understand, I do not agree.

[JehovahsWitness]

Question 5) Do we have ANY Evangelicals or Jehovah's Witnesses among us who believe that yes, Muslims worship the same God, but in a different way?

I can only speak for myself but no, I absolutely do not believe I worship the God of Islam. There are no "different ways" there is only one way: Jesus.

Granted there is only one God, but the idea that because of this fact all those that direct any worship to any God is worshipping the Creator is absolutely unscriptural. Even those that claim to worship the God of Abraham are not necessarily doing so; after all, if God viewed as unacceptable the worship of his own covenant people (the Jews) that used the name JEHOVAH and worshipped at the temple, when they mixed true with false, taught inaccuracies and rejected his prophets, why would we presume he would accept worship of those that do not know or use his name and/or worship according to standards that he did not prescribe?

Who are you worshipping?

The God of the bible identifies himself by his name, his personality, is achievements, his purpose and his methods. It is illogical to conclude that a god that differs in all these aspects is "the same God". That is like a man saying he is married to the same person as you even though she looks completely different, has a different history, personality, job, and skills, like and dislikes, beliefs, expressed intentions and behaviour ... but it must be the same person because they are both women and both love kittens. Or they are both called Jane.

Just saying one worships the God of Abraham doesn't mean one is. Not everyone that claims Jesus as their Lord is either. And not every religion that claims the Creator as the object of their worship is. Indeed, there is one God and he presently has only one people (ie. one united organized international religion), and these are the only people worshipping the true God acceptably. Anyone wishing to worship the True God must find who those people are and join them.

[Elijah John]

Question 5) Do we have ANY Evangelicals or Jehovah's Witnesses among us who believe that yes, Muslims worship the same God, but in a different way?

I can only speak for myself but no, I absolutely do not believe I worship the God of Islam. There are no "different ways" there is only one way, Jesus.

Granted there is only one God, but the idea that because of this fact all those that direct any worship to any God is worshipping the Creator is absolutely unscriptural. Even those that claim to worship the God of Abraham are not necessarily doing so; after all, if God viewed as unacceptable the worship of his own covenant people (the Jews) that used the name JEHOVAH and worshipped at the temple, when they mixed true with false, taught inaccuracies and rejected his prophets, why would we presume he would accept worship of those that do not know or use his name and worship according to standards that he did not authorize?

Because, perhaps, YHVH knows people's hearts better than say, Evangelicals or Jehovah's Witnesses do?

Remember, YHVH's covenant people (Jews) were only taken to task for worshiping other gods, "(Allah is NOT Baal, etc) or for practicing gross sin and injustice and thinking their ritual observance would clear them.

Legalists, (and those who fuss over minor details) "strain gnats and swallow camels".

Do you see Trinitarians too, as worshiping a "different God"?

How about Jews?

Also, Muslims do not reject God's prophets. The Qur'an states that God gave "Moses the Torah, King David the Psalms" and Jesus the Gospel".

They too, recognize Jesus (Issa) as a true prophet of God. In fact, the most important prophet next to Mohammad.

Ironic, since Judaism not only does not consider Jesus God incarnate, but they also reject him as the Messiah, a prophet, or even a good Rabbi.

Yet most Evangelical Christians (and JW's too?) are far more tolerant and understanding of Jews than they are towards Muslims. And far more wiilling to find common ground with Jews than Muslims. Ironic.

Probably has something to do with prophesy and the contest for the Holy Land, and perhaps, competition. Islam is the only religions that rivals Christianity in numbers.

I wonder if Evangelical support would remain if ultimately Jews as a whole never embrace Jesus?