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Numb2pencil
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:12 am  Curiosity of Christians belief on... Reply with quote

Hello. New member to this wonderful site. I've spent quite the time reading up on arguments and discussions throughout this site and came to a conclusion that a lot of people here are well educated and have great knowledge about the topics that they engage in. So, I figured I'd try to ask a question here.

I've heard from Christians that believing in a god other than theirs will result in horrible after life. I can see the point but I started to ponder about those who might have been born and led a life in which they have/had no knowledge about Christianity and the god they believe in. For extreme example, let's say that a boy was born in the Amazon forest. His environment and peers do not possess the bible or ever came upon a missionary who would have spread the knowledge about Christ in general. What happens to them? I've asked this question to a group of Christians and they came to a conclusion that the boy and his peers were doomed to be bound for hell after death. Now, do majority of Christians agree with this?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 11: Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:34 pm
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Bottom line: God doesn't make mistakes. He knows who has a heart for him and who hasn't. He will make sure that the person who wants to know him will get the opportunity to do just that.

For those who will always have hard hearts toward him, it wouldn't matter if Jesus himself appeared to them. They will always find a reason to reject him and disbelieve.

So nobody needs to worry about a boy living in the Amazon rainforest or anywhere else in the world.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 12: Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:21 am
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[Replying to post 11 by Overcomer]

Do people who have a heart for him do so from birth (or from the inception of their soul for those who believe it precedes creation), or can one lose heart for him?

If so, does killing children at younger ages improve their chances of salvation?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 13: Sun Oct 05, 2014 12:10 pm
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Re: Curiosity of Christians belief on...

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Wootah wrote:

[Replying to post 3 by ttruscott]
The philosophical issue I have with your beliefs that we rejected or accepted God before creation is that you are claiming responsibility for your salvation. It is antithetical to the gospel of grace.


Before I was a sinner, did I have a need for grace? Did Christ have to die? Of course not, there was no sin at all yet.

When I am a sinner, can I save myself from my addiction to evil? Can I save myself from HIS righteous retribution on my evil? Not a bit - I am only saved from my sin by HIS grace through faith.

Are the angels under grace? Why should they be, they haven't sinned. Are they elect? Yes they are: 1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels. So election does not go against grace at all, since grace is only necessary for the elect who chose to be sinful in HIS sight and then it is absolutely necessary.

Wootah wrote:
Quote:
And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation[g] under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.


Col 1:21-23 clearly states we are reconciled by Jesus and made blameless so long as we remain faithful. It is clear that what we do in this life matters and that the bible is rejecting your view.


PCE is not the only theology that interprets verses like this one as not referring to the possibility of our election being denied but rather to the non-continuing in faith indicating that one is not elect.

I favour Romans 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,k neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. as including my own resistance as well.

Please also consider: if my salvation rests upon my choice to continue in faith, how then is it by grace? Is it not then by me, my deciding to continue? Who is denying grace?

Wootah wrote:
I think you are building a belief system on a rhetorical flourish of Paul's. Paul is well aware of the need to spread the good news and that it has not gone everywhere on earth. But in heaven I see no reason to doubt that everyone is aware of God's good news.


I use his rhetorical flourish to answer the question of how it can be claimed that the whole world, past and future is without excuse since it does suggest evidence to our pre-existence. I do not claim it proves our pre-existence.

But I do claim to have dozens of such hints of our pre-existence from scripture and am still looking for the verse that flat out denies the possibility.

Peace, Ted

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 14: Sun Oct 05, 2014 12:17 pm
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Jashwell wrote:

[Replying to post 11 by Overcomer]

Do people who have a heart for him do so from birth (or from the inception of their soul for those who believe it precedes creation), or can one lose heart for him?

If so, does killing children at younger ages improve their chances of salvation?


I don't see how a person can have anything before their creation??

And yes, some churches do espouse that young children are innocent and will go to heaven if they die. It is in great favour since Roe v. Wade. I reject it on a number of theological grounds.

Peace, Ted

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 15: Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:00 am
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Re: Curiosity of Christians belief on...

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[Replying to post 1 by Numb2pencil]

Hi! There is two ways we can answer this question.

1) Only a hypocrite would ask this question

Why? because we don't preach to people we see before us or care about the people around us but we 'pretend to care about someone who we assume is hidden from men and God. You can hide from men, but not from God.

As the scripture says in Matthew 12:37, you are only condemning yourself by asking this question.

2) Nothing is Impossible with God!


Praise the Lord!

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 16: Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:12 pm
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[Replying to post 15 by this-gospel]


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Your post violates several Forum Rules and Guidelines. It is disrespectful / uncivil, it contributes nothing to debate, and it is preaching.

This would be a Warning rather than a comment if you were beyond being a newbie.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 17: Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:44 am
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Divine Insight wrote:

This is a very complicated topic to be sure. There are many different views on this within Christendom itself.

I was born and raised as a Christian. The denomination I was born into was quite liberal on these sorts of issues. Not only did they believe that people who never heard of Jesus can still be "saved", but they even believe that people who reject Christianity may still qualify for salvation. Our church was very non-judgmental about other people's relationship with God.

There are of course many denominations that seem to believe that God is an extremely strict monster and who will damn people for every little trivial reason. I never did buy into that view of God even when I was a Christian.

Technically there are arguments to be made that the God of Abraham as portrayed in the Bible actually only has to do with God's relationship with the Israelites and no one else. I believe the Jews in particular believed this. And ironically Jesus was a Jew. Even the Gospels have Jesus telling his own disciples not to go into the cities of the Gentiles and to leave the Gentiles alone. The hardcore Christianity fundamentalists who love to use the Biblical God for hatred proclaim that this simply means that the Gentiles are already damned and not worth wasting time on. Other more liberal Christians, and of course the Jews, simply feel that God has a different relationship with those other people and so it's just not the business of the Israelites to poke there nose into relationships they have nothing to do with.

So there are many different views on this issue.

I always point out another option that most people don't even seem to realize. I am no longer a Christian and I renounce the Bible as portraying a truly stupid and ignorant God. I therefore dismiss the entire bible and all Abrahamic religions as being false man-made myths that have no actual God behind them.

Surprisingly many Christians simply tell me that I have a totally wrong picture of the Biblical God. But actually that view exonerates me from having rejected the Biblical God. How so? Well, if what I am rejecting is actually a wrong picture of God, then surely God himself would be elated and pleased that I have indeed rejected a very wrong picture of God.

Moreover, if what I have rejected is a wrong picture of God then I clearly have no rejected any real actual God. I find it extremely odd that many Christians can clearly see this so well that they actually point it out to me, yet they still seem to think that God will damn me for rejecting a totally wrong picture of him. Rolling Eyes

The only think I am absolutely certain of is that I have no rejected all that is good and righteous. On the contrary I totally embrace all that is good and righteous. Therefore if God truly is good and righteous, then I clearly embrace God.

But I just don't see a good and righteous God being portrayed in the Bible. What I see in the Bible is an absolutely moronic buffoon who has no sense of morality or righteousness. And so that's what I reject.

As far as Jesus is concerned, I have absolutely no way of knowing whether he was a virgin born demigod or not. So for me to claim that he is would be a lie. Why should I lie about something I cannot know. Is it not better to tell the truth and state honestly that I think the story is utterly absurd and I see no rational value in it.

Surely if there is a good and righteous God that God would appreciate my honesty.

So the Christians who believe in a God who would damn me for not believing in the Bible or Jesus are only confirming my observation that the Bible does indeed describe a hateful and non-compassionate moronic buffoon.

I am highly educated in the Bible, and I find it extremely absurd and impossible to believe. It appears to me to be nothing more than a highly male-chauvinistic and religiously-bigoted version of the Greek Zeus. So I see no reason to believe that it's anything more than that. It's just the Hebrew version of Zeus is all.

And finally to be perfectly honest about the whole thing I have absolutely no respect for any "Christians" who actually thrive on using the Biblical God as a means of belittling or condemning anyone. Rolling Eyes

I didn't buy into that type of behavior when I was a Christian, and I certainly don't buy into it now. If there was an actual Jesus I think Christians who use him to condemn non-Christians are actually using Jesus in a hateful way that even Jesus himself would not condone.

But unfortunately hating people in the name of Jesus seems to be a popular Christian mentality.



Not only have you failed to answer the OP's question, but you used his thread as a platform to pronounce your conceit to all. Like you, I used to be a Christian. Unlike you, I do not hate Christians and do not see them as a hating people as you do. You have some real issues to work out.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 18: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:08 pm
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JKHolman wrote:



Not only have you failed to answer the OP's question, but you used his thread as a platform to pronounce your conceit to all. Like you, I used to be a Christian. Unlike you, I do not hate Christians and do not see them as a hating people as you do. You have some real issues to work out.


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Welcome to the forum, JKHolman! We are glad to see you join in. Remember to read the rules, though: address the meat of the post, and don't make negative comments about, or to, the writer of it.

Please review the Rules.


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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 19: Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:07 am
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Hello. New member to this wonderful site. I've spent quite the time reading up on arguments and discussions throughout this site and came to a conclusion that a lot of people here are well educated and have great knowledge about the topics that they engage in. So, I figured I'd try to ask a question here.

I've heard from Christians that believing in a god other than theirs will result in horrible after life. I can see the point but I started to ponder about those who might have been born and led a life in which they have/had no knowledge about Christianity and the god they believe in. For extreme example, let's say that a boy was born in the Amazon forest. His environment and peers do not possess the bible or ever came upon a missionary who would have spread the knowledge about Christ in general. What happens to them? I've asked this question to a group of Christians and they came to a conclusion that the boy and his peers were doomed to be bound for hell after death. Now, do majority of Christians agree with this?

Dear Numb2pencil,

Thank you for your honest inquiry, which of course deserves a clear answer.

Your question also applies to millions of those who have lived or will yet live and die on this earth and have not had the opportunity to clearly know of Christ and His mission as savior and redeemer.

My take is that “God is just”. God, the father of our spirits, is merciful and loving and like His Son Jesus Christ desires that all of his Children receive the full blessings of salvation and “become heirs and joint heirs with Christ”.

God is the same, yesterday, today and forever and is one in whom there is no variableness. Inasmuch as He is just, He obviously has a clear and perfect plan to allow all of his spirit children to obtain their maximum potential.





for example, what of those who lived in the days of Noah? Did ALL of them have a full opportunity to hear and understand the saving gospel doctrines and laws pertaining thereto? All but 8 were drowned. Was there any eventual hope for them? Let us examine what the scriptures reveal to our understanding.
Isaiah 24: 22And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

Isaiah 42:6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Isaiah 49:9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.
10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.

Isaiah 61:1 THE Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the Lord’s.

Zechariah 9:11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

Malachi 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

Corinthians 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

It should be obvious from the above that Christ is the God of both the living and the dead. My observation is that it is of paramount importance that we see the great love that Christ has to redeem all mankind. It is clearly obvious that He went to the people who died and were in what was described as the spirit prison, wherein they were given the opportunity to hear His glorious gospel after they had died. Thus giving them the opportunity to also receive of Christ’s atonement and the attendant blessings of salvation.

This confirms his role as savior of all mankind!

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