Consciousness, Mind and Matter

[DrNoGods]

This posting is partly to continue a discussion in another section related to mind, matter, consciousness, etc. and how these are explained in via science vs. philosophy or religion, and partly to include debate on the validity of the "Argument from Consciousness."

There has been much discussion here about sentience and consciousness, and their origin in humans, as well as whether certain ideas from religion and philosophy can refute the evolutionary science viewpoint that brains have become progressively more complex in structure and function over long periods of time, eventually reaching a level in humans where sentience and symbolic thought are possible, and that these are nothing more than the result of normal physiological functions of the human brain. No supernatural beings required … "mind" is simply a manifestation of normal brain function in humans involving complex interactions of sensory inputs, neural networks, and memory mechanisms (themselves ultimately based on electrical and chemical interactions at the molecular level, ie. purely "matter" based).

What arguments from the theistic or philosophic sides of the fence can be offered to disprove this scientific position, or seriously challenge it? The "theory of coconsciousness also rejects the evolutionary science viewpoint and assigns a theistic basis for consciousness, but how can that particular argument be defended given what we know in in the 21st century about brain evolution and function?

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 20 by Blastcat]

By the way, I wrote a mystical song myself. It's called "Shadows of My Soul". I should record it. I was hoping to get together with some other musicians and play it as a group but I live in a very rural area and other musicians are hard to come by.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to post 18 by DrNoGods]

This is another area where I think dramatically differently. I've heard a lot of arguments that quantum effects cannot affect the brain because the brain is a macro object made of large molecules, etc. However, this is hardly the case. Actually that vast majority of activity that takes place with in the brain is indeed electromagnetic energy (i.e. photons, and electrons), or even ions which can also exhibit quantum effects. So a brain, although a seemingly macro machine, is actually intimately connected and submersed in the quantum level. So the idea that the brain is somehow "isolated" from quantum effects seems like a very poor argument to me.

Sorry ... I didn't mean to imply that quantum effects were not involved, as the things you mention (EM energy, photons and electrons, quantum effects in general, etc.) obviously underpin all physical matter. But I don't think it is necessary to solve a Schrodinger equation to explain how vision or memory work, for example. It is sufficient to tackle these at the molecular (chemical reactions) and macro electrical signal levels much like explaining how an internal combustion engine works. The actual details of how the fuel/air mixture carries out the chemistry and physics of combustion when ignited by a spark involves quantum physics at some point down on the mechanistic chain, but not to explain that the force of this explosion moves the piston away from the ignition region, and via external connections to connecting rods, cam shafts, valves etc. the engine does its thing. So I'd argue that the quantum effects operating in the brain are certainly there, but only at a level below what is needed to explain the more macro functions.

I have a step brother who is very much into the more mystic aspects of life. He is also skeptical of computers and has never owned one, but I have had some interesting conversations with him on this sort of thing. He might be in interesting character on this forum if he'd enter the 21st century.

[Blastcat]

By the way, I wrote a mystical song myself. It's called "Shadows of My Soul". I should record it. I was hoping to get together with some other musicians and play it as a group but I live in a very rural area and other musicians are hard to come by.

Well, look.

I live in the CITY and I have trouble finding musicians.
I think it's my age, really.. that's the barrier.

I kinda look too old for the part.
I AM kinda too old for the part.

Another barrier is that I don't go out much.
If you are a genius, you CAN have a home recording studio ( with sampled musicians ) for next to nothing these days. Bit of a learning curve though.. LOL

Like mount Everest, but I got the gear.. I'm set to go.
How how does this stuff WORK?

It occurred to me that when you link soul with shadow.. I thought "Plato's Cave".

Soul?
Just a shadow, man.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 18 by DrNoGods]

This is another area where I think dramatically differently. I've heard a lot of arguments that quantum effects cannot affect the brain because the brain is a macro object made of large molecules, etc. However, this is hardly the case. Actually that vast majority of activity that takes place with in the brain is indeed electromagnetic energy (i.e. photons, and electrons), or even ions which can also exhibit quantum effects. So a brain, although a seemingly macro machine, is actually intimately connected and submersed in the quantum level. So the idea that the brain is somehow "isolated" from quantum effects seems like a very poor argument to me.

Sorry ... I didn't mean to imply that quantum effects were not involved, as the things you mention (EM energy, photons and electrons, quantum effects in general, etc.) obviously underpin all physical matter. But I don't think it is necessary to solve a Schrodinger equation to explain how vision or memory work, for example. It is sufficient to tackle these at the molecular (chemical reactions) and macro electrical signal levels much like explaining how an internal combustion engine works. The actual details of how the fuel/air mixture carries out the chemistry and physics of combustion when ignited by a spark involves quantum physics at some point down on the mechanistic chain, but not to explain that the force of this explosion moves the piston away from the ignition region, and via external connections to connecting rods, cam shafts, valves etc. the engine does its thing. So I'd argue that the quantum effects operating in the brain are certainly there, but only at a level below what is needed to explain the more macro functions.

Actually I totally agree with you on the mechanisms that you have addressed. For example, explaining how vision, memory, and even logical reasoning can be done, we don't really need to reference anything on the quantum level to explain those things.

However, none of those things explain what it is that is actually "having an experience". In fact, all of those things are just part of the physical world of experience that can be "had".

I realize that this can seem like a somewhat subtle difference, but this is a difference that the mystics have always held to be true. In other words, it doesn't bother their philosophy that all of the experience of the physical world are indeed attributed to the physical world. For them this is a given. So recognizing how the brain physical manipulates data and makes it available to be "experienced" is neither a problem, nor it is even news to them. They totally expect that this would indeed be the case. They don't reject the notion of the physical world entirely. So to recognize these things is not a "movement" toward a secular view, like the secularists seem to think that it "should be".

The idea that since we can explain how the brain creates things to be experienced this must mean that we are then getting closer to explaining what it is that is actually having the experience does not necessarily follow although that's certainly a tempting conclusion for anyone who believe in reductionism.

And that idea may even be correct. It may be true that somehow the brain also gives rise to the actual entity that is having an experience. But like I say, this would be a VAST DEPARTURE from everything else that had been discovered prior to that. In other words, you don't need anything beyond your standard laws of physics to explain memory, vision, or even logical reasoning. But to explain how anything can actually be having an experience of these things would require something BEYOND known physics. Perhaps this is possible via some sort circular feedback loop going on within the analog computer that is our brain. But thus far no one has suggested how such a thing could create an entity that could actually be aware of its existence.

So I'm just not convinced by these claims. In fact, when people claim that we seem to be making "progress" precisely because we are beginning to explain how the brain creates vision, memory, hearing, feeling, touching, and even rational logical thinking, this only tells me that they aren't fully grasping the real problem.

I certainly accept that the brain does all these things and all these thing should indeed be able to be explained you standard physics. But all that just produces a robot, an automaton. But self awareness? What is it that suddenly became "aware" that anything is actually going on?

Go back to the primal list of physics and explain how any of the known properties of our physical universe could create something that could actually become "aware" that's something's going on.

~~~~~

When I speak of the obvious quantum connection with the electronic nature of the brain I do so because this could be the "interface" between the brain an a higher entity that exists in another dimension.

Another argument I have often heard is that if our brains were in contact with some "higher being" we should then be able to detect the energy waves of that connection. But that would only be true if those waves had to actually travel through spacetime. If our brains are directly connected to another dimension through the quantum world, then that connection could never be detected.

At least not with our current level of technology. Perhaps someday if we ever get good at creating quantum computers we might learn of how such a connection can be made. But we are just infants at trying to create a quantum computer at this point.

In fact, Sir Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have done quite a bit of study into the human brain too, and what they have found is that there are reasons to believe that our brains may very well be connected to the quantum world, or acting as quantum computers over an above what might actually be going on in the biological brain. I believe they even have shown some evidence that our brains do behave as quantum computers at least in some ways. In fact, if I recall correctly, there have been studies on birds that have shown that birds somehow use quantum effects in their navigations.

So the idea that biological brains can be connected up as a "quantum computer" is not totally outlandish. Surely if it can happen in a bird brain it could happen in a human brain?

I have a step brother who is very much into the more mystic aspects of life. He is also skeptical of computers and has never owned one, but I have had some interesting conversations with him on this sort of thing. He might be in interesting character on this forum if he'd enter the 21st century.

I actually have several friends who are quite deep in their thinking but never got into computers and see the Internet as a total waste of time. I also have a cousin who has been into computers and all manner of science his entire life, but never uses social media on the Internet. He does use the Interent for serious research and he uses technical software. But he has absolutely no use for social mediate. He doesn't even like to email with me. His emails are extremely short and to the point.

If I ask him a question in an email he'll either simply reply, "I don't know" (that's the FULL email). Or he simply reply with a like to the information. Usually without even so much as an added word. He's very terse in his conversations.

[Divine Insight]

If you are a genius, you CAN have a home recording studio ( with sampled musicians ) for next to nothing these days. Bit of a learning curve though.. LOL

I actually have a home recording studio. Does this qualify me as a genius?

I guess I'd need to make some pretty cool recordings to qualify as a genius huh?

The biggest problem is finding the time to do it.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 25 by Divine Insight]



[center]
So, I was talking to this other genius just like me the other day and I said:[/center]

I actually have a home recording studio. Does this qualify me as a genius?

To me, yes.

I guess I'd need to make some pretty cool recordings to qualify as a genius huh?

No, just buying the equipment was genius.
It looks so COOL.

The biggest problem is finding the time to do it.

My biggest problem is finding the skills.

[Divine Insight]

My biggest problem is finding the skills.

I can run the studio equipment. My problem is at the musician end of things. I can't seem to produce any music worth recording.

I do have a psychological problem though. I want to record everything myself. I have a set of drums, a bass guitar, a lead guitar, an electronic keyboard, trumpet, saxophone, fiddle, banjo, and some other instruments. But when I try to record a full song playing multiple instruments it doesn't sound like music. Instead it sounds like someone let a troop of monkeys loose in a music store.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 27 by Divine Insight]

Instead it sounds like someone let a troop of monkeys loose in a music store.

I dream of someday achieving that level.
Props to the monkey master.

[Kevin Cross]

[Replying to post 1 by DrNoGods]

The question becomes if you are arguing that human consciousness is the result of neural firing, then that would reduce existence down to the chemical process? How does a bunch of chemicals "perceive" themselves and make decisions? If God made humans "in His image" (Ge 1:27) are you arguing God is just of chemicals and energy? If so, such an argument would make life meaningless. Consciousness ultimately, in my opinion, based on Ge 1:27, has to ultimately lead back to God, who knows the beginning from the end (Rev. 1:8, 22:13). God, if the Bible is correct is beyond all chemicals, matter, and energy.

[Neatras]

[Replying to post 29 by Kevin Cross]

The chemicals don't perceive themselves. They operate using chemical processes to produce an effect. That effect is a mind. The mind behaves based on a number of factors, and none of those factors have been identified to be supernatural. The consciousness is a behavioral stratum that developed over countless generations, with gradual progression to a structure that can behave as if it has individual motivations or desires. These are auxiliary effects of selective pressures that caused organisms with a singular brain to improve their own survival chances.

Lemme paint a picture. Let's pretend the consciousness is completely unheard of. We see a brain, and in that brain are neurons flying about. Something happens to the organism, and the neurons move in a particular pattern so the organism will respond in an analog way. But we don't know why it used that particular pattern. It could've done any number of things, and some were ostensibly better suited for the organism's survival. So why did it do that thing? Because the conscious mind being 'simulated' by the brain had a motivation or goal that caused the underlying structure, the brain, to react as if the consciousness were present.

In this way we can identify that consciousness and the brain both affect each other, and this lines up with scientific observation. Supernatural explanations of god stuffing souls into brains/bodies has no explanatory power, except in an attempt to shut down further investigation. "Goddidit," so we should stop studying. Except the answers we're getting regarding the mind are so much more interesting than any religious assertion, so we're going to keep learning.

The brain produces a foundation for an organism's consciousness to be simulated; the consciousness' behaviors and motivations then shape how the brain receives and sends out stimuli. What you are, what your identity is, can be very nicely summed up as your brain's attempt at surviving by funneling its considerable functions and abilities into simulating an agent's consciousness in order to survive. This is how higher cognition emerged, and its resounding success has led to being favored in evolution. Your brain's make-up, its very structure, all facilitate your cognition and your personality's development. Your memory is stored in the brain, your emotions are affected by the chemical triggers in your brain (which can be directed by your conscious mind, as it happens), etc.

What you argue for, a kind of substance dualism, has a number of inherent flaws that can be explored in detail should you raise the topic. But I should warn you: Any assertion you make can be countered by yet more assertions, and there are a handful of assertions that have evidence-based justification that you'll need to come to terms with should you pursue this topic.