When did the Messiah become God?

[polonius]

From a Greek interlinear bible John 1:18 “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].�

18 No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son,[a] who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known. (NRSV)

18 No one has ever seen God. The only Son, God,[a] who is at the Father’s side, has revealed him. (New American Bible Revised Edition)*

*Footnote:
a. 1:18 The only Son, God: while the vast majority of later textual witnesses have another reading, “the Son, the only one� or “the only Son,� the translation above follows the best and earliest manuscripts, monogenēs theos, but takes the first term to mean not just “Only One� but to include a filial relationship with the Father, as at Lk 9:38 (“only child�) or Hb 11:17 (“only son�) and as translated at Jn 1:14. The Logos is thus “only Son� and God but not Father/God.

It must also be realized that Matthew, Mark, and Luke report Jesus as being the “Messiah� but never God himself.

About 85 AD the early Christians began to consider Jesus to be divine. This is implied in the Gospel of John written about 95 AD. John’s gospel is the only one with the seven “I am…� sayings not reported in the synoptics. It also had Thomas say “My Lord, and my God’ not found in Mathew, Mark, or Luke.

About 85 AD, the Christians were expelled from the Jewish synagogues as apostates (“minim� ) in the Jewish 12th Benediction. This expulsion is reported in John’s Gospel. Having two Gods was a serious violation of the shema “Hear, O Israel: God is our Lord, God is one.

So the question is, “When did the messiah become God�?

[dio9]

[Replying to polonius.advice]

I am going to rely on the ancient Ecumenical councils as the authority. I understand their decision to have been a compromise between the Jesus is God faction and the Jesus is human faction. They concluded brilliantly saying Jesus is both wholly God and wholly man.
Leaving it for each believer to decide what exactly that means. I think Jesus' ego self is human while his his inner eternal self is divine .

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 16 by onewithhim]
Its as obvious to me as the nose on my face, See the prologue of the Gospel of John 1:1-5. vs 1 "in the beginning was the word" 2"he was in the beginning with God. 3"all things were made through him" . It is clear to me John is saying Jesus is the word. If not, What do you think he is saying?

" 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being 4 in him was life,[a] and the life was the light of all people. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it."

Yes, that refers to Jesus. You are confused by what "in the beginning" means. This "beginning," IMHO, means the beginning of all of the creation after Jesus was created by Jehovah. After all, Jesus is called "the only-begotten," which means that he was the only person or thing that was created directly by Jehovah Himself without Jesus being involved in the creation. That's what "only-begotten" means.

Orthodox Christianity insists Jesus was not created , there was never a time when he did not exist, he was not a created being. This is in the creeds. Do you accept the creeds?

No. They have been created by men's thinking, and, IMHO, those men were part of the great Apostacy (that Jesus and his Apostles warned us about). They did not impart true understanding.


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[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 16 by onewithhim]
Its as obvious to me as the nose on my face, See the prologue of the Gospel of John 1:1-5. vs 1 "in the beginning was the word" 2"he was in the beginning with God. 3"all things were made through him" . It is clear to me John is saying Jesus is the word. If not, What do you think he is saying?

" 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being 4 in him was life,[a] and the life was the light of all people. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it."

Yes, that refers to Jesus. You are confused by what "in the beginning" means. This "beginning," IMHO, means the beginning of all of the creation after Jesus was created by Jehovah. After all, Jesus is called "the only-begotten," which means that he was the only person or thing that was created directly by Jehovah Himself without Jesus being involved in the creation. That's what "only-begotten" means.

Orthodox Christianity insists Jesus was not created , there was never a time when he did not exist, he was not a created being. This is in the creeds. Do you accept the creeds?

RESPONSE:

Common sense indicates that if Jesus is a "firstborn of all creation" he didn't always exist.

Exactly!!

The "early church fathers" saw this and strained their brains to figure out a way to muddle the peoples' thinking about it, and they succeeded, unfortunately. Those religious men clearly saw that Colossians 1:15 spoke of Jesus being the first person or thing that God created. But Nicaea had basically determined that Jesus was always in existence, so what were they to do about Colossians 1:15? Well, they made it mysterious, complicated, mind-bogglingly intricate, and nonsensical.....but people swallowed it.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to polonius.advice]

I am going to rely on the ancient Ecumenical councils as the authority. I understand their decision to have been a compromise between the Jesus is God faction and the Jesus is human faction. They concluded brilliantly saying Jesus is both wholly God and wholly man.
Leaving it for each believer to decide what exactly that means. I think Jesus' ego self is human while his his inner eternal self is divine .

Why rely on those "ancient Ecumenical councils"? Jesus and the Apostles clearly warned of wolves coming in among the congregations and speaking lies. (Matthew 7:21-23; Acts 20:29,30; 2 Peter 2:1-3; 2 John 9-11) That is what all those councils did.

Imagine God and Jesus making something so confusing and leaving it to each individual to figure out what is meant! Ridiculous. The teachings are clear, and it's a pity that most people will take another man's word for things even though those men truly muddy the waters of truth.

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[dio9]

[Replying to post 22 by onewithhim]

You must be aware the theology of those men was Christianity homogeneous until the reformation. Christianity is what it is today because of those men.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 22 by onewithhim]

You must be aware the theology of those men was Christianity homogeneous until the reformation. Christianity is what it is today because of those men.

Yes, and they screwed it up royally. It does not resemble the early days of Christianity, when Christ was training his disciples to preach going door-to-door in pairs, and when the disciples met in peoples' homes for worship, and when the pagan doctrines of the Trinity and immortal soul and hell-fire were not known.


Acts 20:29,30

[polonius]

[Replying to polonius.advice]

I am going to rely on the ancient Ecumenical councils as the authority. I understand their decision to have been a compromise between the Jesus is God faction and the Jesus is human faction. They concluded brilliantly saying Jesus is both wholly God and wholly man.
Leaving it for each believer to decide what exactly that means. I think Jesus' ego self is human while his his inner eternal self is divine .

RESPONSE: Let's follow your reasoning.

"Ecumenical councils as the authority." Where did they get this "authority" or do you believe them because they say they have authority?

I have a friend named Ralph who says he speaks "with the authority of God." Would you say I should believe him? Do you? If not, why not? See the problem?

The situation is similar to that of the old preacher who said he would prove God exists in his next Sunday sermon. His church was filled to capacity!

He looked down from his pulpit and held up his Bible. He announced that since the Bible said God exists, this proved that He does.

Sort of like ecumenical councils.

If you'd like to pursue the the claim that we should believe ecumenical councils, we can begin with the Council of Florence, which proclaimed that there were only Catholics in heaven. This was later reinforced by the papal ex-cathedra pronouncement that only those who obeyed the Pope would go the heaven.

Do you believe that???