Messiah's 2nd Coming?

[Elijah John]

Was the doctrine of the 2nd coming of Jesus forumulated because he failed to accomplish Messianic expectations the first time around? I.e., universal peace and justice, the redemption of Israel from it's enemies?

Where was it written in the "Old" Testament/Hebrew Bible that the Messiah would need to come twice to accomplish his Messianic role?

[polonius]

JW posted:

Short answer is Jesus will not return to be a man. His return will be as a mighty spirit leading an army of myriads of angels. If you recal in the bible a single angel killed 185,000 fighting men in one night (and we don't even know if it took him all night, he could have been home before midnight...) can you imagine what what an army of millions of such angels will do?

The Infancy Gospel of Thomas (chapter 2).

This child Jesus, when five years old, was playing in the ford of a mountain stream; and He collected the flowing waters into pools, and made them clear immediately, and by a word alone He made them obey Him. And having made some soft clay, He fashioned out of it twelve sparrows….And Joseph, coming to the place and seeing, cried out to Him, saying: Wherefore doest thou on the Sabbath what it is not lawful to do? And Jesus clapped His hands, and cried out to the sparrows, and said to them: Off you go! And the sparrows flew, and went off crying. And the Jews seeing this were amazed, and went away and reported to their chief men what they had seen Jesus doing.

QUESTION:

Do you claim that readers should believe both these stories, or may we recognize fiction in both?

[JehovahsWitness]

QUESTION:

Do you claim that readers should believe both these stories, or may we recognize fiction in both?

The bible canon is authorative here, I have no interest in discussing the apocrypha, new testament or otherwise. I can only speak for myself and what *I* believe and leave others to do the same.


JW

[polonius]

QUESTION:

Do you claim that readers should believe both these stories, or may we recognize fiction in both?

The bible canon is authorative here, I have no interest in discussing the apocrypha, new testament or otherwise. I can only speak for myself and what *I* believe and leave others to do the same.


JW

RESPONSE: On the other hand many are following the advice of St. Paul.


1 Thessalonians 5:21New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
21 but test everything; hold fast to what is good;

1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways.

[onewithhim]

JW posted:

Short answer is Jesus will not return to be a man. His return will be as a mighty spirit leading an army of myriads of angels. If you recal in the bible a single angel killed 185,000 fighting men in one night (and we don't even know if it took him all night, he could have been home before midnight...) can you imagine what what an army of millions of such angels will do?

The Infancy Gospel of Thomas (chapter 2).

This child Jesus, when five years old, was playing in the ford of a mountain stream; and He collected the flowing waters into pools, and made them clear immediately, and by a word alone He made them obey Him. And having made some soft clay, He fashioned out of it twelve sparrows….And Joseph, coming to the place and seeing, cried out to Him, saying: Wherefore doest thou on the Sabbath what it is not lawful to do? And Jesus clapped His hands, and cried out to the sparrows, and said to them: Off you go! And the sparrows flew, and went off crying. And the Jews seeing this were amazed, and went away and reported to their chief men what they had seen Jesus doing.

QUESTION:

Do you claim that readers should believe both these stories, or may we recognize fiction in both?

There is a reason why God didn't allow the Thomas "Gospel" to be allowed into the final canon. It is purely a man's imagination. From what students of the Bible can ascertain, Jesus most probably didn't even remember his past life in heaven until his baptism, when "the heavens were opened up and he saw descending like a dove God's spirit coming upon him." (Matt.3:16) That was the point where he was granted recollection of where he was from and what his mission was. In addition to that, he never used his God-given power for frivolous acts. The Father's purposes were always respected and Jesus never went beyond them. Even when Satan challenged him to turn stones into bread, he would not consider it. (Luke 4:3,4)


.

[marco]

There is a reason why God didn't allow the Thomas "Gospel" to be allowed into the final canon. It is purely a man's imagination.

We could learn a little from: Matthew 7:3-5 (KJV) :

" And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

You think God was the actual Editor of the Bible. He allowed the imaginative account of Adam and the snake while censoring the gospel of Thomas? Surprising.

[onewithhim]

There is a reason why God didn't allow the Thomas "Gospel" to be allowed into the final canon. It is purely a man's imagination.

We could learn a little from: Matthew 7:3-5 (KJV) :

" And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

You think God was the actual Editor of the Bible. He allowed the imaginative account of Adam and the snake while censoring the gospel of Thomas? Surprising.

Yes, because the spurious Gospel of Thomas has things in it that obviously belie what is said everywhere else in the Bible. I mentioned one of them, I think.

The account in Genesis undoubtedly has some truth to it, though I don't think, personally, that Moses put in all of the details. The basic facts stand. Eve thought about what it might mean if she rebelled against Jehovah and perhaps proved Him to be holding back something good for her. She didn't believe that He had only her well-being in mind. She didn't love Him or appreciate Him. Then Adam followed in her footsteps and thus we have the reason as to why the world is in such a mess today.

[polonius]

onewithhim posted:

[quote] There is a reason why God didn't allow the Thomas "Gospel" to be allowed into the final canon. It is purely a man's imagination.[\quote]

RESPONSE: So is the Book of Revelation. But God "allowed" that to be in the present canon of scripture.

[onewithhim]

onewithhim posted:

There is a reason why God didn't allow the Thomas "Gospel" to be allowed into the final canon. It is purely a man's imagination.[\quote]

RESPONSE: So is the Book of Revelation. But God "allowed" that to be in the present canon of scripture.

I don't agree. I believe that John actually saw visions that were given to him by the risen Jesus Christ from heaven.

Revelation 1:1,2

[marco]

The account in Genesis undoubtedly has some truth to it, though I don't think, personally, that Moses put in all of the details. The basic facts stand. Eve thought about what it might mean if she rebelled against Jehovah and perhaps proved Him to be holding back something good for her. She didn't believe that He had only her well-being in mind. She didn't love Him or appreciate Him. Then Adam followed in her footsteps and thus we have the reason as to why the world is in such a mess today.

It would be wonderful if all human problems could be traced to their roots with such simplicity. Adam and Eve, who feature as fully functioning humans, seem to have bypassed the caveman stages. It is sensible to regard them as poetic entities, suggestive of man's first intelligent steps. To talk of Eve as if she was Elizabeth 1 or Cleopatra, say, does not make much sense to me. One might as well talk about Ophelia from Hamlet as a real person.

The world is struggling in some areas, and doing well in others. Nothing to do with Adam. Across the centuries man has made progress, despite the persecution of scientists by religious panels. We have thankfully stopped regarding Old Testament messages as a basis for our laws, and as justification for executing people. Slowly we have learned to tell truth from fiction.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 29 by marco]

Thank you. Your opinion is noted.