Where did YHVH ever say..

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Elijah John
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Where did YHVH ever say..

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

Where in the "Old" Testament/Hebrew Bible did YHVH ever say anything resembling John 14.6?

That is, the only way TO Him is through His Son or through the Messiah?

Is John 14.6 in any way rooted in the Hebrew Bible?

If so, please demonstrate.
Last edited by Elijah John on Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Elijah John
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Re: Where did YHVH ever say..

Post #11

Post by Elijah John »

JP Cusick wrote:
Elijah John wrote: Where in the "Old" Testament/Hebrew Bible did YHVH ever say anything resembling John 14.6?

That is, the only way TO Him is through His Son or through the Messiah?

Is John 14.6 in any way rooted in the Hebrew Bible?

If so, please demonstrate.
John 14:6
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." KJV

The confusion in this comes from orthodox Christianity which harped onto the last 3 words and virtually ignores the point of what Jesus said there.

The message was that:
1) Any person who follows the way will thereby be going to the Father.
2) Any person who follows the truth will thereby be going to the Father.
3) Any person who follows the life will thereby be going to the Father.

The message is saying that the Messiah is in each of those actions (or virtues), and it was not talking about going through Jesus the person as Christianity claims.

An example would be the "4 Noble Truths" from the Buddha, because the Buddha connected with the "truth" and thereby it is a connection to the Father God. LINK.

Another example is the "way" as seen in the Tao Te Ching = the Way and Integrity book, LINK.

The word "life" is a bit more complicated as it means any person who treads on the correct aspects of living will thereby connect with the Father by default.

The entire text of John 14:6 has nothing to do with Jesus as a person, while it had everything to do with the spiritual connect with the Father God.

And I must point out that Yahweh is a word that means "Male Creator" which is properly translated as "Father" just as Jesus kept referring to our Father who art in Heaven.
Hi JP, very interesting thoughts and interpretation of John 14.6. That maintains the integrity of the verse, without the needless divisiveness it has caused over the centuries.

I read somewhere that John 's Jesus was constrasting the Way of Christ, with the Temple way. The context of the GoJ was written around the time new converts to Christ were being booted out of the Synagogues, and John's Jesus was simply making a specifice contrast. Not a contrast to all other great religions of the world, many of which Jesus would not have even heard of.

Another interpretation is that John was using the language of love. When a man says to a woman, "you are the most beautiful woman in the world" they seldom mean it literally. But it is true nonetheless, because that woman is the most beautiful to that man.

But the fact remains, that verse is not rooted int he OT/Hebrew Bible. At least it has no literal counterpart. If I'm wrong on that, someone please show me where YHVH teaches that no one comes to Him except through the Messiah (Jesus).

But I take strong issue with your understanding on the meaning of the name YHVH. It does not mean "Male Creator God" but rather it is based on the Hebrew "to be" rendered as "I AM that I AM".
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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JP Cusick
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Re: Where did YHVH ever say..

Post #12

Post by JP Cusick »

Elijah John wrote: Hi JP, very interesting thoughts and interpretation of John 14.6. That maintains the integrity of the verse, without the needless divisiveness it has caused over the centuries.
I am happy that you see the significance.

I must wonder if the verse caused the divisiveness or was it just the people who jumped to the wrong interpretation.
Elijah John wrote: Not a contrast to all other great religions of the world, many of which Jesus would not have even heard of.
I say that if we view Jesus as a truly enlightened person or as the son of God or even just a Prophet - then Jesus had to know about all the religions of the world.
Elijah John wrote: But the fact remains, that verse is not rooted int he OT/Hebrew Bible. At least it has no literal counterpart. If I'm wrong on that, someone please show me where YHVH teaches that no one comes to Him except through the Messiah (Jesus).
The Old Testament (or Elder Testament) does not support that because Jesus did not say that (as I tell in my previous comment) about the Messiah.

However the Elder Testament does say a lot about the truth and about the way and about the concept of life = the way, the truth, the life.

See Deuteronomy 32:4 "He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."

And then there is that "Tree of Life" in Genesis 3:24 "So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

What Jesus said in John 14:6 is well covered in the Old Testament, but the Christian misinterpretation is not.
Elijah John wrote: But I take strong issue with your understanding on the meaning of the name YHVH. It does not mean "Male Creator God" but rather it is based on the Hebrew "to be" rendered as "I AM that I AM".
That too is a popular Christian interpretation but I find that to be misguided.

When God told Moses "I am that I am" then it was an unprepared answer to a perplexing question in that Moses asked God a question which God had never faced or ever answered before = What is his name? Exodus 3:14

As such God saying = "I am that I am" - was a literal description and not God's name.

The name came 3 chapters later in Exodus 6:3 where God said to use the name of Yahweh (or Jehovah per the KJV).
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Elijah John
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Re: Where did YHVH ever say..

Post #13

Post by Elijah John »

JP Cusick wrote: I say that if we view Jesus as a truly enlightened person or as the son of God or even just a Prophet - then Jesus had to know about all the religions of the world.
It is possible that Jesus may have been familiar with Zoroastrianism because of the exile, but very doubtful he had heard of Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism etc. He never heard of Islam, of course, because that was not introduced till about six centuries after his lifetime.

No matter how enlightened he may have been, short of being the Almighty Himself, it is doubtful Jesus knew very much of events or religions around the world.

Remember, Jesus himself seems to have said that there were things "only the Father knows".

Have you ever considered the possibility (or the likelihood) that it was the Evangelist John, and not Jehovah who put words on Jesus lips to suit his own agenda?
Last edited by Elijah John on Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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JP Cusick
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Re: Where did YHVH ever say..

Post #14

Post by JP Cusick »

Elijah John wrote: It is possible that Jesus may have been familiar with Zoroastrianism because of the exile, but very doubtful he had heard of Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism etc. He never heard of Islam, of course, because that was not introduced till about six centuries after his lifetime.

No matter how enlightened he may have been, short of being the Almighty Himself, it is doubtful Jesus knew very much of events or religions around the world.

Remember, Jesus himself seems to have said that there were things "only the Father knows".
I just can not look at it like that, because it troubles me to view ancient people as if they were uninformed or lacked the available knowledge.

We do not know whatever Jesus might know, so you could be correct that He did not know of the other far off religions, and that is just not comfortable to me.

I hear other Apostles being criticized too, as like Peter could not have written the 2 letters because he was an uneducated fisherman, and we do not know if Peter or John or any of them were uneducated.

I like to tell the story that Abe Lincoln had no formal education, and it is said that people called Lincoln lazy because he would read books instead of working chores.

So Jesus could have learned anything available, and that area is called the Middle East because it is in the middle crossroads of the various continents and so the information was available to Jesus as it was to Peter and to any other person.

In Taoism it has many of the same kind of doctrines that Jesus preached and the Tao is at least 500 years before Christ.
And Jesus fulfilled the ideal of Buddhism perfectly while on the cross.

Jesus certainly touched on other religious doctrines - whether He knew it or not.
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Re: Where did YHVH ever say..

Post #15

Post by bluethread »

JP Cusick wrote:
John 14:6
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." KJV

The confusion in this comes from orthodox Christianity which harped onto the last 3 words and virtually ignores the point of what Jesus said there.

The message was that:
1) Any person who follows the way will thereby be going to the Father.
2) Any person who follows the truth will thereby be going to the Father.
3) Any person who follows the life will thereby be going to the Father.

The message is saying that the Messiah is in each of those actions (or virtues), and it was not talking about going through Jesus the person as Christianity claims.
I agree with you, but for different reasons. I am not really willing to accept that Yeshua's words are derived from a knowledge of the philosophies of the nations. I think that the context of the passage is what is really significant. Yeshua is preparing them for His death. He frames this as going to another place. Thomas takes the analogy as a reference to an earthly journey. Yeshua brings him back by expanding the analogy and says, "If you really know me, you will know my Father as well." In other words, the one who understands HaTorah as Yeshua does, understands what Adonai intended in providing HaTorah.

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Re: Where did YHVH ever say..

Post #16

Post by JP Cusick »

bluethread wrote: I agree with you, but for different reasons. I am not really willing to accept that Yeshua's words are derived from a knowledge of the philosophies of the nations. I think that the context of the passage is what is really significant. Yeshua is preparing them for His death. He frames this as going to another place. Thomas takes the analogy as a reference to an earthly journey. Yeshua brings him back by expanding the analogy and says, "If you really know me, you will know my Father as well." In other words, the one who understands HaTorah as Yeshua does, understands what Adonai intended in providing HaTorah.
Okay - yes - I agree with you in this.

And I particularly agree with your saying that Jesus (Yesu) was "expanding the analogy".

Orthodox Christians make the mistake that Jesus was limiting and reducing the message down to Jesus Himself as a person, when Jesus was doing the exact opposite by expanding our view with the intent of reaching to the Father.

You and I might word it a little different but I see us as on the same page in this.
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Re: Where did YHVH ever say..

Post #17

Post by onewithhim »

Elijah John wrote: Where in the "Old" Testament/Hebrew Bible did YHVH ever say anything resembling John 14.6?

That is, the only way TO Him is through His Son or through the Messiah?

Is John 14.6 in any way rooted in the Hebrew Bible?

If so, please demonstrate.
Well, I see Jesus in what Moses wrote:

"A prophet from your own midst, from your brothers, like me, is what Jehovah your God will raise up for you---to him you people should listen....Jehovah said to me, 'A prophet I shall raise up for them from the midst of their brothers, like you; and I shall indeed put my words in his mouth, and he will certainly speak to them all that I shall command him. And it must occur that the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name, I shall require an account from him.'" (Deuteronomy 18:15,17-19)

"'I, even I, have installed my king upon Zion, my holy mountain....Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance and the ends of the earth as your own possession. You will break them with an iron scepter, as though a potter's vessel you will dash them to pieces.'" (Psalm 2:6,8,9)

"And there must go forth a twig out of the stump of Jesse [David's father]; and out of his roots a sprout will be fruitful. And upon him the spirit of Jehovah must settle down, the spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the spirit of counsel and of mightiness, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah; and there will be enjoyment by him in the fear of Jehovah. And he will not judge by any mere appearance to his eyes, nor reprove simply according to the thing heard by his ears. And with righteousness he must judge the lowly ones, and with uprightness he must give reproof in behalf of the meek ones of the earth." (Isaiah 11:1-4)


All of this, and more, points to the one who would come in Jehovah's name to speak Jehovah's words, which Jesus of Nazareth did. He himself applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself at Luke 4:18-21. (See also John 5:19; John 12:49,50; Matthew 21:9.)


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Re: Where did YHVH ever say..

Post #18

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 17 by onewithhim]

That certainly gives Jesus a lot of cover to say whatever he wants.

But the fact remains, YHVH never spells is out directly, in the OT/Hebrew Bible that the "Messiah" would be the only way to find Him or to find Spiritual salvation.

Or that all avenues TO YHVH had to pass via the "toll-booth" of the Messiah.

And whether John put words on Jesus lips is debatable. Many historical Jesus scholars believe that he did.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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