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liamconnor
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:59 pm  Abiogenesis Reply with quote

Again, I rarely wander over to the sciences and more rarely set up an argument. Not my forte.

But I recall reading that a famous atheist became a theist (not a Christian) because of the problem of abiogenesis.

Now, as I understand the term, it refers to the theory that life can come from non-life.

In simplistic terms, a rock can, over time, produce (on its own, nothing added to it; the development happens "within") cells.


Question:

Do I understand the term "abiogenesis"?


Based on my (or your corrected version's) definition, has it been reproduced by scientists?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 381: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:44 am
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[Replying to post 380 by For_The_Kingdom]

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Sure, God choose for Moses to be the "chosen one" for the redemption of Israel..yet, he woke up and suddenly decided to kill Moses for no reason whatsoever.

Gotcha.


...FtK, what gotcha is there? You don't have one. That is EXACTLY what is suggested by the text in Exodus Chapter 4. We have God choosing Moses for some great task, then, for no reason whatsoever that is explained to us the reader...God is about to kill Moses.

No reason given as to why, no reason given as to why he doesn't actually go through with it.

Quote:
Right, you just step on them or swat them. Those kind of actions speak louder than any words I know of.

But you don't let those actions speak when it's God doing them. If I swat flies, I can be considered a heartless monster. If God swats US by the millions...he's loving, just and merciful.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 382: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:25 am
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Clownboat wrote:

The Christian god concept is one that is willing to commit genocide. And you want to point to a verse in its ignorant book to claim that I'm without excuse to believe in this genocidal god concept?


Quote:
Sure, God just woke up on morning and said "I think I am gonna kill me a bunch of people today". That is exactly how it happened, eh?

No, you see, there is no evidence for a global flood nor this great genocide of life on the planet. If you want me to believe in your genocidial god, you will need to provide evidence for it. Personally, I can only hope that it is false just like all the other gods. At least I have odds on my side as even you probably agree that all the gods are false. Well, all but your own of course.

Quote:
Second, on atheism, I am not sure why genocide is so wrong anyway.

You don't know why the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation is wrong?
You would seriously not see anything wrong if for example some dictator decided to kill off all Eskimos? If you are not lying to me, then please, I beg you for the sake of our children, please remain a religious person.

Quote:
God has the right to give life, take life, and restore life.

And you would teach this to children?
Only when mothers and fathers stop telling their children that there is a god out there that loves them so much as to send them to heaven, yet hates another so much as to send them to a hell will we ever stop the violence and bloodshed.
I beg you to keep such teachings away from my children.

Quote:
Second, how many flys have you killed in your life?
I honestly don't know.

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On atheism, a human life doesn't have any more virtue than a fly, ant, or roach.
No atheist I have ever met has made this claim.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. - Socrates

Quote:
In fact, on atheism, humans ARE animals...and in the animal kingdom, animals kill each other all the time. Its what we do.

Science, not atheism is what determined that humans are animals. Also, not all animals kill each other.
That was a whole lotta wrong in one post don't you think? If only there was a god concept to help stop such blunders.

Clownboat wrote:

The unbeliever is without excuse you quote? Hardly. What is your excuse for defending such a god concept? IMO, you need to justify your belief in such a concept.


Quote:
The arguments for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ is my justification.

I am sorry to hear you say this. Please stay away from my children as I don't want them to believe in any gods that the believers can justify genocide because of a nonsensical idea that a god needs human sacrifice for atonement.

You see that other tribe over there? They are evil and our god, which is the one true god wants us to murder them to help cleans his planet.

It is sad that humans are still teaching their children such ideas.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 383: Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:14 am
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For_The_Kingdom wrote:

But the area of contention is the cause, not the effect.

No it isn't. Your contention is that naturalism cannot in principle explain consciousness.

Quote:
We agree that the cold air is blowing...no need in debating something that we both agree on. We are in disagreement on how/why the air is blowing and by what means is it blowing.

Disagree away. Both are naturalistic.

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You people have problems with me shaking my head. But sometimes, that is all one can do. *shrugs*.

I will take that as another win.

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I am an organ donor and I strongly believe in organ donation. That is my contribution to science.

That's more a contribution to society than science specifically, assuming you donation is meant for transplant and not research.

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What is your contribution to Christianity?

Hopefully nothing.

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But Mother Nature did it with no knowledge at all. So basically, Mother nature is getting more stuff done by accident than intelligent human beings are getting done on purpose. LOL.

Right, is that a problem?

Quote:
Re-read the scenario.

I am still getting the same impression, you made scramble egg and decorated it with a batman logo using pepper.

Quote:
What is funny is the fact that you keep referring me to check my local natural history museum, when you know full well that it won't provide those kind of answers to these kind of questions. You know this, yet, you keep referring me to them LMAO.

Incorrect. I kept referring you to check your local natural history museum, because I know full well that that's exactly where you can find the evidence to support the claims I am making.

Quote:
?

You say you are satisfied, but your actions indicated otherwise. I am asking you to explain this apparent discrepancy.

Quote:
I would say in about the same sense.

Same sense as what?

Quote:
2,000 years seems like only yesterday when compared to how long its been since we've seen life come from nonliving material.

In fact, compare 2,000 years to "Never", and 2,000 years seems as close as a few hours ago LOL.

So how much longer would you suggest?

Quote:
I know..I said I would when I decide to waste valuable time. I haven't decided to waste valuable time yet.

That doesn't sound like you would do it at all.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 384: Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:48 am
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rikuoamero wrote:

...FtK, what gotcha is there? You don't have one. That is EXACTLY what is suggested by the text in Exodus Chapter 4. We have God choosing Moses for some great task, then, for no reason whatsoever that is explained to us the reader...God is about to kill Moses.

No reason given as to why, no reason given as to why he doesn't actually go through with it.


So, because no reason was given, therefore, there was no reason at all. Non sequitur.

rikuoamero wrote:

But you don't let those actions speak when it's God doing them.


Because when God takes a life, he is taking back what is rightfully his. When we take a life, we are taking something that doesn't belong to us.

rikuoamero wrote:

If I swat flies, I can be considered a heartless monster. If God swats US by the millions...he's loving, just and merciful.


Taking a life, generally speaking, is not necessarily wrong. There may be morally sufficient reasons to do so and not all cases are equal.

There is no contradiction between taking a life and being loving, just, and merciful.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 385: Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:25 am
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Clownboat wrote:

No, you see, there is no evidence for a global flood nor this great genocide of life on the planet.


No, you see, there is no evidence regarding the notion that life came from nonlife, order came from chaos, intelligence came from nonintelligence, language came from muteness, the universe came from nothing, etc.

So before you go talking about what there is no evidence for regarding the Bible, focus yourself on the lack of evidence for your own religion (naturalism).

Clownboat wrote:

If you want me to believe in your genocidial god, you will need to provide evidence for it.


Provide me evidence that sentient life can come from nonliving material.

Clownboat wrote:

Personally, I can only hope that it is false just like all the other gods.


Personally, I can only hope that mankind didn't originate from slime crawling out of primordial soup.

Clownboat wrote:

At least I have odds on my side


Actually, you don't.

Clownboat wrote:

as even you probably agree that all the gods are false. Well, all but your own of course.


I also agree that all the women out there aren't my mother. Well, all women but my own mother of course.

Clownboat wrote:

You don't know why the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation is wrong?


No, not on atheism/naturalism..no.

Clownboat wrote:

You would seriously not see anything wrong if for example some dictator decided to kill off all Eskimos?


No, not on atheism/naturalism. Do you see anything wrong with the alpha male of a lion pride deciding to kill off all hyenas? If you do, tell that to the lion.

What about all of the insects you've killed in your life...or how about all of the animal meat that you've consumed in your life? Are you a vegan? Vegetarian? Are you a member and/or supporter of PETA?

Or do you just care about human life, and disregarding all other forms of life? If you are not a vegetarian, vegan, or a member of PETA, you are not practicing what you preach...because on naturalism, a human life has no more intrinsic value than the life of a fly...yet, we kill insects all the time, and we eat the meat of animals all the time.

Naturalists just simply don't have a dog in the fight it comes to the subject of morality.

Clownboat wrote:

If you are not lying to me, then please, I beg you for the sake of our children, please remain a religious person.


Trust me, it is because of my religion as to why I don't do a LOT of things, sir.

Clownboat wrote:

And you would teach this to children?


Yes, it is called Children's Bible Study.

Clownboat wrote:

Only when mothers and fathers stop telling their children that there is a god out there that loves them so much as to send them to heaven, yet hates another so much as to send them to a hell will we ever stop the violence and bloodshed.
I beg you to keep such teachings away from my children.


I will stop telling them once it stops being true.

Clownboat wrote:
I honestly don't know.


My point exactly.

Clownboat wrote:
No atheist I have ever met has made this claim.


It was a statement..

Clownboat wrote:

Science, not atheism is what determined that humans are animals.


Not necessarily. Not every scientist has to agree that humans are animals...but every atheist does.

Clownboat wrote:

Also, not all animals kill each other.


But it happens more times than not.

Clownboat wrote:

That was a whole lotta wrong in one post don't you think?


I would tell you to correct me if I'm wrong...but you can't correct me.

Clownboat wrote:

I am sorry to hear you say this. Please stay away from my children as I don't want them to believe in any gods that the believers can justify genocide because of a nonsensical idea that a god needs human sacrifice for atonement.


LOL. "Daddy, you said that killing is wrong, but you just ate a greasy hamburger which came from a cow that was slaughtered at the slaugtherhouse. How is killing wrong when you are eating the meat of an animal that was killed".

Clownboat: "Honey, killing is only wrong when it comes to humans killing other humans. The cow that was slaughtered in order for me to enjoy this burger, its life is insignificant. It is ok to butcher animals for the purpose of food consumption. Now, go to your room for having the nerve to question my blatant act of hypocrisy."

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 386: Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:37 am
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[Replying to post 385 by For_The_Kingdom]

Quote:
. "Daddy, you said that killing is wrong, but you just ate a greasy hamburger which came from a cow that was slaughtered at the slaugtherhouse. How is killing wrong when you are eating the meat of an animal that was killed".

Clownboat: "Honey, killing is only wrong when it comes to humans killing other humans. The cow that was slaughtered in order for me to enjoy this burger, its life is insignificant. It is ok to butcher animals for the purpose of food consumption. Now, go to your room for having the nerve to question my blatant act of hypocrisy."



It's called perspective. From the perspective of most humans it's not wrong. From the perspective of cows we could be seen as monsters. From god's perspective it might be like killing cows. Yet from our perspective its monstrous.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 387: Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:40 am
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Bust Nak wrote:

No it isn't. Your contention is that naturalism cannot in principle explain consciousness.


*the origin of consciousness.

Bust Nak wrote:

Disagree away. Both are naturalistic.


And one required intelligent design, while the other one didn't.

Bust Nak wrote:

I will take that as another win.


But why? LOL.

Bust Nak wrote:

That's more a contribution to society than science specifically, assuming you donation is meant for transplant and not research.


Organ transplants is science at its best.

Bust Nak wrote:

Hopefully nothing.


That's fine. Its all good. I don't know what Christianity will do without your contributions. I can only hope/pray that we will figure out something.

Bust Nak wrote:

Right, is that a problem?


Yeah...big one.

Bust Nak wrote:

I am still getting the same impression, you made scramble egg and decorated it with a batman logo using pepper.


Wrong.

Bust Nak wrote:

Incorrect. I kept referring you to check your local natural history museum, because I know full well that that's exactly where you can find the evidence to support the claims I am making.


Oh, so the natural history museum will support your otherwise unsupported claims? Gotcha. Tell ya what...give me the number to YOUR local natural history museum, and I will call them and ask them about abiogenesis...and see what they say? Fair enough?

Bust Nak wrote:

You say you are satisfied, but your actions indicated otherwise. I am asking you to explain this apparent discrepancy.


Ion remember.

Bust Nak wrote:

Same sense as what?


Ion remember.

Bust Nak wrote:

So how much longer would you suggest?


Ion know. Thats a toughy.

Bust Nak wrote:

That doesn't sound like you would do it at all.


I said give me the number. I feel like wasting valuable time.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 388: Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:42 am
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DanieltheDragon wrote:

It's called perspective. From the perspective of most humans it's not wrong. From the perspective of cows we could be seen as monsters. From god's perspective it might be like killing cows. Yet from our perspective its monstrous.


Interesting.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 389: Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:53 pm
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For_The_Kingdom wrote:

DanieltheDragon wrote:

It's called perspective. From the perspective of most humans it's not wrong. From the perspective of cows we could be seen as monsters. From god's perspective it might be like killing cows. Yet from our perspective its monstrous.


Interesting.


Yes and because differing perspectives exist simultaneously objective morality is impossible.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 390: Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:31 pm
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[Replying to post 385 by For_The_Kingdom]

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No, you see, there is no evidence regarding the notion that life came from nonlife,


I think this will be the last time I ask you. What in your mind IS non-life? Please finish this sentence
"Non-life = _______ "

Quote:
Provide me evidence that sentient life can come from nonliving material.


You. I point at you, For_The_Kingdom, as an example of life that is sentient, that came from non-living material. You are sentient, and your physical body is made up of non-living elements such as carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, etc.
I highly suspect that you have seen me say this many times before, so please tell me why you more than likely think this answer does not satisfy the above request for evidence.

Quote:
What about all of the insects you've killed in your life...or how about all of the animal meat that you've consumed in your life? Are you a vegan? Vegetarian? Are you a member and/or supporter of PETA?

This and more is allowed on Christianity. There is nothing in the Bible that indicates humans are meant to be vegetarians/vegans. Indeed God in the Old Testament found the smell of animal sacrifices pleasing.

Quote:
Naturalists just simply don't have a dog in the fight it comes to the subject of morality.

Neither do Christians, at least when it comes to the subject of objective morality (emphasis mine, deliberately). Is one man marrying multiple females moral, objectively? I don't see how on Christianity, since many of Judaism and Christianity's patriarchs (Abraham, Jacob etc) have multiple wives and God says nothing about it. It is only later on, with Christianity, that we get this idea of monogamous marriage, and that bigamy is immoral.

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