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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:28 am
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God, the MOA, Omnipresence and Hell

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In the recent debates about the Modal Ontological Argument, God or the MGB has been defined (in part) as being omni-present. That is, existing everywhere.
If one watches the first minute of the following video

YouTube


we hear from William Lane Craig, the same guy who proposes the Modal Ontological Argument, that hell is a separation from God.

Wait a minute. How can one be separate from God...if God is omni-present?

So question for debate - How can standard Christian doctrines of hell be compatible with the definition of God in the Modal Ontological Argument?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:16 am
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Obviously he is proposing a more interesting God.
One whom is not all-powerful.
One who struggles with an imperfect universe just as we do.
Who creates prisons to punish (and not reform - why?), just as we do - when we fell helpless to help others.

But as I have said, William Lang is not even worth quoting. I don't understand his popularity, except I suppose he fools some of the people, some of the time. Other than that, his arguments, as you and others has pointed out, have big gaping holes in them.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:12 am
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Re: God, the MOA, Omnipresence and Hell

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rikuoamero wrote:


we hear from William Lane Craig, the same guy who proposes the Modal Ontological Argument, that hell is a separation from God.

Wait a minute. How can one be separate from God...if God is omni-present?

So question for debate - How can standard Christian doctrines of hell be compatible with the definition of God in the Modal Ontological Argument?
You are knocking down a strawman here. Although the characteristic of omnipresence isn't logically ruled out, in William L. Craig's (or Alvin Plantinga's) version of the MOA God is defined with the characteristics of being all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:27 am
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Re: God, the MOA, Omnipresence and Hell

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Goose wrote:

rikuoamero wrote:


we hear from William Lane Craig, the same guy who proposes the Modal Ontological Argument, that hell is a separation from God.

Wait a minute. How can one be separate from God...if God is omni-present?

So question for debate - How can standard Christian doctrines of hell be compatible with the definition of God in the Modal Ontological Argument?
You are knocking down a strawman here. Although the characteristic of omnipresence isn't logically ruled out, in William L. Craig's (or Alvin Plantinga's) version of the MOA God is defined with the characteristics of being all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good.


I see your link and raise you this
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/defenders-2-podcast/transcript/s3-8

there is no place that God is not present.

To sum up, God is omni-present. Everywhere, according to William Lane Craig and certain people on this site who have debated the MOA. In that link, he talks about this contradiction, but I think it to be a load of waffle, in that he wants to have his cake and eat it too. God is present everywhere, but not present in hell, even though he is there, because reasons.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:44 am
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Re: God, the MOA, Omnipresence and Hell

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rikuoamero wrote:

Goose wrote:

rikuoamero wrote:


we hear from William Lane Craig, the same guy who proposes the Modal Ontological Argument, that hell is a separation from God.

Wait a minute. How can one be separate from God...if God is omni-present?

So question for debate - How can standard Christian doctrines of hell be compatible with the definition of God in the Modal Ontological Argument?
You are knocking down a strawman here. Although the characteristic of omnipresence isn't logically ruled out, in William L. Craig's (or Alvin Plantinga's) version of the MOA God is defined with the characteristics of being all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good.


I see your link and raise you this
Did you read it? Have you read any of the scholarly work on the MOA?


Quote:
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/defenders-2-podcast/transcript/s3-8

there is no place that God is not present.

To sum up, God is omni-present.
Red Herring. Craig's position on omnipresence has nothing to do with his version of the MOA. Still knocking down a strawman in your OP.


Quote:
Everywhere, according to William Lane Craig and certain people on this site who have debated the MOA.
Yes Craig argues for omnipresence. Just not in the MOA. Still knocking down a strawman in your OP.


Quote:
In that link, he talks about this contradiction, but I think it to be a load of waffle, in that he wants to have his cake and eat it too. God is present everywhere, but not present in hell, even though he is there, because reasons.
Is this supposed to be a coherent rebuttal?

Here's Craig's answer again.

William L. Craig wrote:
What I would want to do is to try to re-interpret what people mean when they say that God isn’t present in hell because clearly in the way we described it, he is present in hell. He knows what is happening there, and he is causally active there, sustaining it in being. What would it mean? When Scripture says that people are excluded from the presence of the Lord and the glory of his might, I think it is talking about a relational rupture. God is not present to the people in hell in a personal, relational sense. It is in that sense that they don’t have an experience of the presence of God. But certainly he is there cognitively and causally, though there is no relationship with God, and in that sense people in hell experience the utter absence of God. I would interpret it as a relational rupture.


Care to give it another crack?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:29 am
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Re: God, the MOA, Omnipresence and Hell

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[Replying to post 5 by Goose]

Explain to me please how what I'm doing here is a red herring . WLC teaches
1) God is omnipresent.
2) God is not present in hell.

Christians who propose the modal ontological argument often take inspiration from WLC and define their god as being omnipresent, since they think that is one of his maximal attributes. These same Christians often teach that hell is a separation from God.
Which is a contradiction.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:32 am
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Re: God, the MOA, Omnipresence and Hell

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[Replying to post 5 by Goose]

Omnipotence.
Omnipresents.

Those words... They don't mean what you think they mean.
They mean the least thoughts of such a creature are capable of bending diamond. That the desires of such a creature could blacken a thousand suns.

They mean he watches over people in Hell, experiencing whatever emotions it desires to experience as it watches them suffer.

Are you there yet?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:44 am
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To add to my above reply
3)WLC also teaches the MOA.
In all three situations he is talking about the same entity.
So it doesn't matter if Craig never says omnipresence whenever he debates the MOA.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:04 pm
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Re: God, the MOA, Omnipresence and Hell

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rikuoamero wrote:
Wait a minute. How can one be separate from God...if God is omnipresent?


1. GOD is omnipresent within HIS created reality but not 'outside' of HIS creation. IF that which is not within created reality is the outer darkness, there is no need to suppose that omnipresence must exist there. IF GOD is everywhere, how can HE be where there is no where? If there is not an uncreated nowhere past the edge of our created reality, then our reality must be infinite...and I don't think the Bible supports that.

2. GOD is with us now but everyone does not feel it and that is to be without HIM, separate from HIM. The separation is our pov, not HIS. I don't particularly like this one...

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:13 pm
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Re: God, the MOA, Omnipresence and Hell

Like this post (1): rikuoamero
Goose wrote:

rikuoamero wrote:

Goose wrote:

rikuoamero wrote:


we hear from William Lane Craig, the same guy who proposes the Modal Ontological Argument, that hell is a separation from God.

Wait a minute. How can one be separate from God...if God is omni-present?

So question for debate - How can standard Christian doctrines of hell be compatible with the definition of God in the Modal Ontological Argument?
You are knocking down a strawman here. Although the characteristic of omnipresence isn't logically ruled out, in William L. Craig's (or Alvin Plantinga's) version of the MOA God is defined with the characteristics of being all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good.


I see your link and raise you this
Did you read it? Have you read any of the scholarly work on the MOA?


Quote:
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/defenders-2-podcast/transcript/s3-8

there is no place that God is not present.

To sum up, God is omni-present.
Red Herring. Craig's position on omnipresence has nothing to do with his version of the MOA. Still knocking down a strawman in your OP.


Quote:
Everywhere, according to William Lane Craig and certain people on this site who have debated the MOA.
Yes Craig argues for omnipresence. Just not in the MOA. Still knocking down a strawman in your OP.


Quote:
In that link, he talks about this contradiction, but I think it to be a load of waffle, in that he wants to have his cake and eat it too. God is present everywhere, but not present in hell, even though he is there, because reasons.
Is this supposed to be a coherent rebuttal?

Here's Craig's answer again.

William L. Craig wrote:
What I would want to do is to try to re-interpret what people mean when they say that God isn’t present in hell because clearly in the way we described it, he is present in hell. He knows what is happening there, and he is causally active there, sustaining it in being. What would it mean? When Scripture says that people are excluded from the presence of the Lord and the glory of his might, I think it is talking about a relational rupture. God is not present to the people in hell in a personal, relational sense. It is in that sense that they don’t have an experience of the presence of God. But certainly he is there cognitively and causally, though there is no relationship with God, and in that sense people in hell experience the utter absence of God. I would interpret it as a relational rupture.


Care to give it another crack?

So it seems WLC doesn't think omni means omni? My understanding of the prefix 'omni' means 'all'. The above waffling of WLC seems to be trying to remove some of the places God is not actually present i.e. personally and in relationship. So basically God is everywhere (even within our person, since that is part of everywhere) except He is not there personally. Whatever that means. I call it redefining words to make an argument work.

Another way to look at it is if God is real and Hell is real then God is right there in Hell with everyone, experiencing all the agony with everyone, but doing nothing about it (because presumably it's too late once you find yourself in this Hell place God has built to both be and not be in all ways). So God is all knowing, all loving, and all present, but apparently impotent to sort out the ever growing pile of souls in agony in Hell. Fascinating.

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