Humanitarian Warfare

[bluethread]

Though I understand territorial warfare and see that as clearly Constitutional, I am conflicted over humanitarian warfare, pardon the pun. I gather that I am not the only one, because it appears that though nearly all pacifists strongly oppose territorial warfare, some strongly argue for humanitarian warfare. Given the situation is Syria, this issue is now front and center. So, the question is do you think that humanitarian warfare is moral and should Trump have bombed the chemical stores at that base in Syria?

[Clownboat]

If our only hope were humanity then we are lost indeed, but with God every thing is possible.

If the gods make all things possible, then why do they act as if they are not real? Can anyone show anything that a god has done, whether possible or not?

How is presupposing that the gods are real not just wishful thinking?

Here we are talking warfare, is the irony of all the warfare that has been fought on behalf of god concepts lost on everyone? Would it not be more accurate to say something like, "with the gods, all things are not possible, but war is inevitable"?

Would Syria even have an issue if the gods were rejected there? They would need to justify their wars using something other than the gods, which IMO are the greatest justifications for atrocities in the history of humans.

Perhaps the humanitarian thing to do would be to try to educate people out of the division that is caused by religious beliefs. Let's go after the root of the wars. This way no war may be needed, whether humanitarian or not.

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 17 by JP Cusick]

I have to agree I don't believe the future of the planet will ultimately rest with man. My personal belief is that God is the souvereign and that, no he will not allow the planet to be destroyed.

JW

Is this type of belief not dangerous for our children?
Take climate change for example, whether you believe it to be a real thing or not, we know mechanically what CO2 does when it's in our atmosphere and we know humans are adding much.

If your god concept is not real, (like the majority of the world believes) I suggest beliefs like yours are dangerous for our children and our planet. Can you show that you are not a danger by teaching our children not to worry the destruction of our planet because some god that you cannot show is real would never allow such a thing?

If not, is simply believing religious claims justification enough for ignoring the idea that humans can destroy the planet?

[JP Cusick]

The USA being a republic is what was historically important - and being a republic is the only thing that has saved us so far from the peril of democracy.

I would say that it is being a constitutional republic that has saved us so far. A simple republic tends to become an elected aristocracy. I personally believe that is the greater current danger, as opposed to mob rule, as the idea of the Constitution being seen as a "living document" gains prominence. Applying this to the OP, aristocratic humanitarianism has created a domestic aristocracy and that has bled into foreign policy.

I like what you say here a lot, and I agree with you here.

You said it much better than I said it.

....................... Cheers.

[JP Cusick]

If our only hope were humanity then we are lost indeed, but with God every thing is possible.

If the gods make all things possible, then why do they act as if they are not real? Can anyone show anything that a god has done, whether possible or not?

I see now that what I said seems like a contradiction, because humanity needs to save our selves, and yet humanity is lost without God, so humanity can save our selves only by turning correctly back to God, and yet God will intervene to set humanity onto the right path.

My own faith could do a lot more but other people stop me from proceeding, and in fact I need other people to get anything done, and it is like Jesus said that even in His hometown among His own people He was given no honor, and people crucified Jesus, so they will resist me too.

A lot of people do not want to face the Gospel message, but if we look at it true then God did show His self in a friendly form as Jesus and the people refused to accept it, and the people today are not much different in attitude.

It is a really BIG deal to see that God sent His son to humanity and the people crucified Him, and God sent other messengers and sent Prophets and the people fight against God.

If we look at the twentieth (20th) century then we see the Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King and Mother Teresa, and humanity praises them but rejects them at the same time.

The hope of salvation is a hope based on overcoming the opposition of humanity to God - and that is what it has always been.

How is presupposing that the gods are real not just wishful thinking?

I like for it to be wishful thinking.

The problem that I keep finding is in those people who do not have any of the wishful thinking.

Ask your self why would you criticize wishful thinking?

Here we are talking warfare, is the irony of all the warfare that has been fought on behalf of god concepts lost on everyone? Would it not be more accurate to say something like, "with the gods, all things are not possible, but war is inevitable"?

We might see the crusades as being wars for God, when it was really more of a war for land and power.

But the 1st WW was not fought for God as it was all patriotism, and the 2nd WW was not fought for God as it was more a war of vengeance, and old Rome was a military state which had its Gods of victory but Rome fought for riches and power conquest.

The USA and Russia have been threatening nuclear war for 60+ years and it has nothing to do with serving God.

I say we need to stop blaming God for our human wars.

Would Syria even have an issue if the gods were rejected there? They would need to justify their wars using something other than the gods, which IMO are the greatest justifications for atrocities in the history of humans.

In Syria and Iraq and Afghanistan and the middle east it is the USA and western allies who are fighting our wars against the Muslims, and so this is anti religion wars.

The Gods (or God) is the only thing that gives those people their hope of salvation against the USA who is fighting against their God.

Obama would not say that he was fighting against the Muslims (against the religion) but Trump is happy to say it.

Perhaps the humanitarian thing to do would be to try to educate people out of the division that is caused by religious beliefs. Let's go after the root of the wars. This way no war may be needed, whether humanitarian or not.

I see you and the USA as unjust and untrue by blaming the conflict in Syria and elsewhere to be caused by religion - instead of seeing it as being fought because of the anti religion and anti Muslim.

Take the stick out of our own eye first, and then see clearly how to remove the pebble from their eye.

[Clownboat]

If our only hope were humanity then we are lost indeed, but with God every thing is possible.

If the gods make all things possible, then why do they act as if they are not real? Can anyone show anything that a god has done, whether possible or not?

I see now that what I said seems like a contradiction, because humanity needs to save our selves, and yet humanity is lost without God, so humanity can save our selves only by turning correctly back to God, and yet God will intervene to set humanity onto the right path.

It is good that you acknowledge this. However, I still wonder why all the gods that people believe in act as if they are not here. If this is not true, and there is evidence that the gods have interfered, then I would like to know about it so I can amend my thinking.

My own faith could do a lot more but other people stop me from proceeding, and in fact I need other people to get anything done,

Are all things possible with your gods help or not? It sounds like it only takes mere humans to overpower what you and your god would otherwise do.

and it is like Jesus said that even in His hometown among His own people He was given no honor, and people crucified Jesus, so they will resist me too.

Perhaps your on to something. This supposed gods chosen people reject what Christians claim about it. Why should we reject what his chosen people have to say? Surely not because of the modern church?
One thing is certain. If Jesus was not the son of a god, the Jews would have rejected him as such. If he truly was the son of a god, and if the Jews knew it, why would they reject him again?

First this god is rejected in the Garden of Eden. He punishes snakes, women with childbirth pains and kicks them out of the garden. What did that accomplish?

Not all that long later, now this god needs to commit genocide on the entire planet (save 8) because they have once again rejected him. I'm once again left trying to figure out what this punishment accomplished.

Either way, we go forward in the future and once again, this gods chosen people are rejecting him and this claim that he sent his only son to die for us, only to come back in 3 days and end up in heaven for eternity.

This god concepts seems to be an ineffective punishing god. Why don't you reject it?

A lot of people do not want to face the Gospel message, but if we look at it true then God did show His self in a friendly form as Jesus and the people refused to accept it, and the people today are not much different in attitude.

Personally JP, I'm not much of a fan of sacrificing humans to the gods. You can try to blame some rejection of some gospel message, but the human sacrifice doesn't go away.

It is a really BIG deal to see that God sent His son to humanity and the people crucified Him, and God sent other messengers and sent Prophets and the people fight against God.

It's an even bigger deal when mothers and fathers go on to claim to their children that there is a god that loves them so much as to send them to heaven, yet hates another so much as to send them to a hell.
Rejecting claims of resurrections should be the norm until shown to be true. Telling our children such things as above should not be the norm IMO.

The hope of salvation is a hope based on overcoming the opposition of humanity to God - and that is what it has always been.

I don't think it is fair of you to blame humans for the gods not showing themselves to be real. I feel your blame is misplaced and should be redirected.

The problem that I keep finding is in those people who do not have any of the wishful thinking.

Ask your self why would you criticize wishful thinking?

I want to believe as many things as I can that are true and I want to limit having false beliefs. Wishful thinking is a path to obtaining false beliefs, like faith can be. Evidence, logic and reason I find to be paths to truth.

We might see the crusades as being wars for God, when it was really more of a war for land and power.

I do not claim that all wars are due to religion, but I will not stick my head in the sand about the division and wars/atrocities that have been committed on behalf of religions.

I say we need to stop blaming God for our human wars.

I blame humans and their beliefs in the gods for much division and strife. I don't blame any god, nor am I aware of a real one to blame. Be assured, humans are to blame.

In Syria and Iraq and Afghanistan and the middle east it is the USA and western allies who are fighting our wars against the Muslims, and so this is anti religion wars.

Therefore, no religion, no war?

The Gods (or God) is the only thing that gives those people their hope of salvation against the USA who is fighting against their God.

It's also their religion that tells them that we are infidels that deserve death, no?
A false hope may be hope, but that doesn't make it true.

I see you and the USA as unjust and untrue by blaming the conflict in Syria and elsewhere to be caused by religion - instead of seeing it as being fought because of the anti religion and anti Muslim.

You can see what you want, but I ask that you address what I actually say, not what you see. "Perhaps the humanitarian thing to do would be to try to educate people out of the division that is caused by religious beliefs?"

Take the stick out of our own eye first, and then see clearly how to remove the pebble from their eye.

No need. I have you here aparently to tell me how to remove the pebble from their eye.
Go... I'm ready to hear it.

Thanks for your words.

[JP Cusick]

Are all things possible with your gods help or not? It sounds like it only takes mere humans to overpower what you and your god would otherwise do.

All things are possible but all things are not permissible nor beneficial, so it takes a lot of discernment to act appropriately.

My finding is that humans have very little power while our self importance and self control are greatly exaggerated.

Other humans can overpower me, but the will of God goes onward.

If you or anyone wants to see a really significant message (and proof) from God then try this one:
Link = The United States and Britain in Prophesy.

This god concepts seems to be an ineffective punishing god. Why don't you reject it?

I do reject that as you define it.

I know of a different Father God who works tirelessly to bring forth the children of God (all of humanity) into our grand destiny.

The ineffective punishing god was never true.

It's an even bigger deal when mothers and fathers go on to claim to their children that there is a god that loves them so much as to send them to heaven, yet hates another so much as to send them to a hell.
Rejecting claims of resurrections should be the norm until shown to be true. Telling our children such things as above should not be the norm IMO.

I too do not like parents teaching their children such things, but I reject the notion of telling parents what they are to teach to their own children, and when the parents believe such things to be true then it is right for them to teach their children as they believe.

I am happy to declare with absolute certainty that there is no such place as Hell, and in fact the concept of Hell comes from the old Greek religion, and when the Bible is correctly interpreted then it does not support that concept.

And nobody goes to any place called Heaven, as heaven in the Bible is really just meant to be the heavens as in outer space, and the real message is about a resurrection into the Kingdom of God on earth as it is in Heaven (as the Kingdom is in heaven). The resurrection is just the hope as no one knows for sure until it happens.

In this quote above I mostly agree with you, except you throw out the truth and the hope with the ignorance, and that I do not do. The ignorance needs to be replaced instead of just throwing it out.

[Clownboat]

Are all things possible with your gods help or not? It sounds like it only takes mere humans to overpower what you and your god would otherwise do.

All things are possible but all things are not permissible nor beneficial, so it takes a lot of discernment to act appropriately.

My finding is that humans have very little power while our self importance and self control are greatly exaggerated.

Other humans can overpower me, but the will of God goes onward.

If you or anyone wants to see a really significant message (and proof) from God then try this one:
Link = The United States and Britain in Prophesy.

This god concepts seems to be an ineffective punishing god. Why don't you reject it?

I do reject that as you define it.

I know of a different Father God who works tirelessly to bring forth the children of God (all of humanity) into our grand destiny.

The ineffective punishing god was never true.

It's an even bigger deal when mothers and fathers go on to claim to their children that there is a god that loves them so much as to send them to heaven, yet hates another so much as to send them to a hell.
Rejecting claims of resurrections should be the norm until shown to be true. Telling our children such things as above should not be the norm IMO.

I too do not like parents teaching their children such things, but I reject the notion of telling parents what they are to teach to their own children, and when the parents believe such things to be true then it is right for them to teach their children as they believe.

I am happy to declare with absolute certainty that there is no such place as Hell, and in fact the concept of Hell comes from the old Greek religion, and when the Bible is correctly interpreted then it does not support that concept.

And nobody goes to any place called Heaven, as heaven in the Bible is really just meant to be the heavens as in outer space, and the real message is about a resurrection into the Kingdom of God on earth as it is in Heaven (as the Kingdom is in heaven). The resurrection is just the hope as no one knows for sure until it happens.

In this quote above I mostly agree with you, except you throw out the truth and the hope with the ignorance, and that I do not do. The ignorance needs to be replaced instead of just throwing it out.

JP, let me assure you that all your confidence is only in your own mind.
If I'm wrong, please evidence these claims of yours so that we all can know that I am wrong. I will then amend my thinking towards you.
- but the will of God goes onward
- I know of a different Father God who works tirelessly to bring forth the children of God (all of humanity) into our grand destiny.
- The ineffective punishing god was never true. (Perhaps you are not talking about the god of the Bible. If not, then disregard this challenge).
- (You) declare with absolute certainty that there is no such place as Hell
- And nobody goes to any place called Heaven

When you cannot show us that you speak the truth, understand why I'm not interested in just hearing a random person on the internet making silly claims. Preaching here is discourage and if you don't want your claims challenged, then Holy Huddle might be for you.

I made a statement about the Bible god being an ineffective punishing god. I then explained why.
Your retort was simply to say that it's not true. I'm sorry friend, but you will need to do better than that.

[JP Cusick]

JP, let me assure you that all your confidence is only in your own mind.
If I'm wrong, please evidence these claims of yours so that we all can know that I am wrong. I will then amend my thinking towards you.

I am very happy that my confidence is safely in my heart and mind and it is thereby no longer vulnerable to the waves of discouragement - thank God.

I say we need to get back to this thread subject, and we can discuss other topics in other threads.

I have no need nor desire to show you as wrong or to try to convince you of what I have already said.

I stand by all of my previous comments, as mine are accurate and mine are true and that is quite sufficient for me.

My posting response to the OP about "Humanitarian Warfare" given in comment #3 is still valid.

[Clownboat]

JP, let me assure you that all your confidence is only in your own mind.
If I'm wrong, please evidence these claims of yours so that we all can know that I am wrong. I will then amend my thinking towards you.

I am very happy that my confidence is safely in my heart and mind and it is thereby no longer vulnerable to the waves of discouragement - thank God.

I say we need to get back to this thread subject, and we can discuss other topics in other threads.

I have no need nor desire to show you as wrong or to try to convince you of what I have already said.

I stand by all of my previous comments, as mine are accurate and mine are true and that is quite sufficient for me.

My posting response to the OP about "Humanitarian Warfare" given in comment #3 is still valid.

Please refrain from making comments that you are not willing to evidence.

I would go back to church if I just wanted to hear peoples thoughts and opinions. This however is a debate site...