JW's: Jesus is the pr�totokos (Colossians 1:15)

[Faber]

Colossians 1:15
(15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
(16) For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
(17) He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. (NASB)

The Watchtower: Jesus is unique in that he is the sole direct creation of his Father. He is the firstborn Son. In fact, he is “the firstborn of all creation.� (Col. 1:15) (Appreciate Jesus’ Unique Role in God’s Purpose, December 15, 2008)
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2008922

1. Why do the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the Lord Jesus was created based on the use of the "firstborn" when the Greek word (pr�totokos) as used in Colossians 1:15 does not mean He was created?

2. In verses 16 and 17 we see that "by Him all things were created" and since both Job 9:8 and Isaiah 44:24 teach that God "alone" did the actual work of creation doesn't that prove the Lord Jesus is God?

[JehovahsWitness]

JW's: Jesus is the prototokos (Colossians 1:15)

Are you suggesting that the Greek word prototokos does ONT appear in Colossians 1:15 -17?

COLOSSIANS 1:15
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist," - NWT

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Faber]


QUESTION: What did Paul mean when he refered to Jesus as the "firstborn of all creation" (Col 1:15)?

Some have suggested that since the scriptures have examples of the term "firstborn" (prototokos ) denoting preeminence. Firstly it should be pointed out that the term "firstborn" (prototokos) occurs 128 times in the Septuagint and 8 times in the NT and at no time is it used to denote someone "supreme" or "preeminent" of a group he himself does NOT belong to. In other words, even if Paul *is* saying Jesus is "preeminent" he is still saying he (Jesus) is preeminent in a group he (Jesus) belonged to - in short that Jesus is the GREATEST of all the CREATED beings.


WHY IS DAVID CALLED THE FIRSTBORN (prototokos)?

And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth -- Psalm 89:28,

This scripture is clearly not giving a new lexical meaning to prototokos but simply showing that God has the right to put David in the position a firstborn (compare 1 Chronicles 26:1-2 and 2 Chronicles 21:3). Scripturally the firstborn in a family was almost invariably given a position of preeminence but that position was not automatic. Take for example the case of Reuben, Jacob's literal first-born; he lost *pre-eminence* but he continued to be known as the "first-born" (prototokos in the Septuagint) of the family - see Gen. 49:3, 4; 1 Chronicles 5:1-3 – RSV. So Psalms is not giving a new or alternative meaning to the world "firsborn" only showing the rights and privileges ATTACHED to that position can on occassion be given (or taken away).

To illustrate: Take the meaning of the word "whore" (or prostitute). The meaning of the word is essentially someone that exchanges sexual favors for money. If a politician, forced to accept illegal money inexchange for political power said that his benefactor is "making a whore out of him" does this mean that the word "whore" can mean prostitute OR politician? Can one legitimately have a definition for whore "one that runs for any kind of political office"? Obviously not, the meaning of the word remains unchanged but the actions have resulted in the subject being submitted to similar feelings of degredation.

That God declared David "firsborn" does not mean the word has two different meanings, only that God's actions have resulted in David having the same rights and privileges of someone who is the born first, even though he was in fact the youngest.


FURTHER READING
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.fr/ ... l-115.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200312032221 ... otokos.htm

[JehovahsWitness]

2. In verses 16 and 17 we see that "by Him all things were created" and since both Job 9:8 and Isaiah 44:24 teach that God "alone" did the actual work of creation doesn't that prove the Lord Jesus is God?

No it does not. I have already addressed this issue in my earlier post, I will re-post the link in case you missed it.

Job 9:8 & Isaiah 44:24 Explained
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 08#p864008

Does the fact that Jesus worked with Jehovah God in Creation prove Jesus must be Almighty GOD?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 15#p864015

[Faber]

pr�totokos
1. William Mounce: The description of Christ as the firstborn of all creation (Col. 1:15 ; cf. Heb. 1:6) refers not to his temporal beginnings but to his supremacy and honor (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, firstborn, page 255).
2. Joseph Thayer: This passage does not with certainty prove that Paul reckoned the logos in the number of created beings (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, pr�totokos, page 555).


I didn't miss what you wrote concerning Job 9:8 and Isaiah 44:24 for I already pointed out that what you asserted was incorrect. Angels were with God but He did the actual work of creation "alone."
1. Karl Keil and Franz Delitzsch: It was He who alone, without the co-operation of any other being, stretched out the heavens, who made the earth into a wide plain by Himself, i.e., so that it proceeded from Himself alone
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/ ... ah-44.html

[JehovahsWitness]

God but He did the actual work of creation "alone." 1. Karl Keil and Franz Delitzsch: It was He who alone, without the co-operation of any other being, stretched out the heavens, who made the earth

QUESTION Did the Son play an active participatory role in the Creation of the heavens and the earth?

COLOSIANS 1:16 - Aramaic Bible in Plain English
By him [the Son] was everything created which is in Heaven and in The Earth: everything that is seen and everything that is unseen, whether Thrones or Dominions or Principalities or Rulers; everything has been created by his hand.

GENESIS 1:26
God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness

PROVERBS 8:30, 31
I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time; I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men.

Further reading : Who is Jesus Christ?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2005681

[Faber]

God's work of creation was performed by Him "alone." (Job 9:8; Isaiah 44:24)