If the Law was only to highlight sin,

[Elijah John]

If the Law was only for the purpose of highlighting sin, and to demonstrate our need for a Savior as Paul suggests, why the constant expectation in the OT/Hebrew Bible that the Law should be kept?

Why is the Law celebrated in Psalm and Proverb as life affirming?

Why did Moses impose punishments for failure to keep it, and promise Divine reward for keeping it?

Why didn't Moses clearly explain to the people that the Law was only prosecutorial, and couldn't be kept?

But that the coming Messiah would "fulfill the Law" for them?

Is this yet another instance where Paul is wrong?

[Wootah]

If the Law was only for the purpose of highlighting sin, and to demonstrate our need for a Savior as Paul suggests, why the constant expectation in the OT/Hebrew Bible that the Law should be kept?

Why is the Law celebrated in Psalm and Proverb as life affirming?

Why did Moses impose punishments for failure to keep it, and promise Divine reward for keeping it?

Why didn't Moses clearly explain to the people that the Law was only prosecutorial, and couldn't be kept?

But that the coming Messiah would "fulfill the Law" for them?

Is this yet another instance where Paul is wrong?

Both books of the Bible celebrate the law. All Christians do, Paul did. The law is righteous. Nothing I've ever been taught or read says otherwise. And we should keep the law. And the law does give life - by following the law we follow life-giving paths. So hopefully you can see how much we agree upon.

But if there is no law then there is no sin. I got a parking fine the other day and that was only possible because someone created a parking fine law first. Do you understand that?

If we go back to the Garden of Eden - how did Adam & Eve fall from grace? It was only possible because there was a law and they broke it.

Now let's look at another context. Suppose I want to compete in the Olympics as a runner and suppose that my country allows anyone to apply to complete for Australia if they can run 100 metres in 12 seconds. Now that rule shows me how far I have fallen from or how far I have to go to reach the standard - correct?

This is what all laws do. A 60km per hour speed limit indicates that when I drive at 80km per hour that I fell short by 20 km.

It's a feature of laws that they highlight when we break them. It's basically uncontroversial.

[Monta]

If the Law was only for the purpose of highlighting sin, and to demonstrate our need for a Savior as Paul suggests, why the constant expectation in the OT/Hebrew Bible that the Law should be kept?

Why is the Law celebrated in Psalm and Proverb as life affirming?

Why did Moses impose punishments for failure to keep it, and promise Divine reward for keeping it?

Why didn't Moses clearly explain to the people that the Law was only prosecutorial, and couldn't be kept?

But that the coming Messiah would "fulfill the Law" for them?

Is this yet another instance where Paul is wrong?

What does Paul have to do with what Moses said?

[Elijah John]

If the Law was only for the purpose of highlighting sin, and to demonstrate our need for a Savior as Paul suggests, why the constant expectation in the OT/Hebrew Bible that the Law should be kept?

Why is the Law celebrated in Psalm and Proverb as life affirming?

Why did Moses impose punishments for failure to keep it, and promise Divine reward for keeping it?

Why didn't Moses clearly explain to the people that the Law was only prosecutorial, and couldn't be kept?

But that the coming Messiah would "fulfill the Law" for them?

Is this yet another instance where Paul is wrong?

What does Paul have to do with what Moses said?

Because Paul contradicts Moses implicit direcive that not only is it possible to keep the Law, and that it was given in order TO be kept.

Paul, by contrast, seems to see the Law primarily as vehicle to highlight sin. To demonstrate our need for a Savior.

That goes against original intent of the Law, as given through Moses. If Paul is right, Moses too should have explained the Law's "purpose" while he was delivering it:

"Here's the Law, but don't bother tying to keep it, because you can't. But don't worry, the Messiah will keep it for you, the Law is only to show you that you need the Messiah."

Sound absurd?

[Wootah]

Psalm 1:2
But his delight is in the law of the Lord, And in His law he meditates day and night.

Psalm 19:7
The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul; The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 37:31
The law of his God is in his heart; His steps do not slip.

Psalm 119:1
How blessed are those whose way is blameless, Who walk in the law of the Lord.

Psalm 119:72
The law of Your mouth is better to me Than thousands of gold and silver pieces.

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[JehovahsWitness]

Ephesians 2:14-16

For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

The Law is enmity.

Galatians 2:20-21

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.�

Righteousness does not come through the Law.

1 Corinthians 15:55-57

O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?� The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The power of sin is the Law.

Romans 5:20-21

The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The Law came in so that the transgression would increase.

Romans 4:13-15

For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

The Law brings about wrath.

Do you have a point to make about these scriptures in relation to the OP or are supposed to just guess?


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 2 by McCulloch]

Your posts 2 and 3 provide excellent contrast and is exactly what I was talking about.

By "contrast" I presume you are not refering to any "contradiction". A scripture about water can be "contrasted" with a scripture about hairstyles, but this isn't in the least bit problematic.

McCulloch basically just lists scriptures and offers no explanation as to what, if anything is problematic therein. Enough for those that either lack critical thinking skills (no one on this site of course but I am sure in the world population there are such people) or somone that is intimidated by seeing several scriptures listed together and thus concedes to whatever axiom is being presented.

In any case I feel reasonably confident that no explanation of what, if anything, is problematic in the above list of scriptures will ever be presented in this thread although I do recognize the scriptues deal with various topics.


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Does anyone still want to defend Paul's credibility in spite of him blatantly contradicting Scripture?

Where does Paul "blatantely contradict" scripture? I see none in the scriptures so far listed in this thread but feel free to refer to and explain what scripture you believe he "blantently contradicts" and why you conclude that it is a "blatent contradiction".

In the absence of the above the question is moot.


JW


Do the teachings of Paul contradict those of Jesus?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 602#419602

- Rom 3:24
- Rom 3:25
- Rom 5:9
- Rom 5:21
- Rom 7:9
- Eph 1:4
- Eph 2:4-10; Eph 2:5

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 17 by JehovahsWitness]

Examples of Paul's blatant contradiction of OT/Hebrew Scripture are well provided by McCulloch in posts 2 and 3 of this thread.

In short, the Law in the Hebrew Bible/"Old" Testament was a thing to be celebrated as life-affirming..and it was expected to be kept.

For Paul, it was primarily a vehicle to highlight sin in our lives, and to demonstrate our need for a savior. The Law for Paul was prosecutorial, not something to be embraced as salvific.

And contrary to the "OT" assertion that the Law wad life-affirming, Paul said that no one could be saved (justified) by attempting to keep it.

This contradicts Jesus too, who said "if you would enter into Life, keep the Commandments".

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 18 by Elijah John]

This has already been addressed. Please refer to the link below
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 096#868096

[Monta]

[Replying to post 13 by Elijah John]

"Paul, by contrast, seems to see the Law primarily as vehicle to highlight sin. To demonstrate our need for a Savior.

xxx You've been given a choice.

That goes against original intent of the Law, as given through Moses. If Paul is right, Moses too should have explained the Law's "purpose" while he was delivering it:

xxx What do you think was the original intent. If God says 'thou shalt not' do yu turn
around and ask why?

"Here's the Law, but don't bother tying to keep it, because you can't. But don't worry, the Messiah will keep it for you, the Law is only to show you that you need the Messiah."

xxx This is not according to the NT where someone asked Jesus what they need to
be saved and the reply was to keep the commandmants.