Was the historical Jesus a fellow believer?

[Elijah John]

1) Was Jesus of Nazareth a fellow believer in YHVH God?
Or is he God himself, the proper object of belief and devotion.

2) Did Jesus teach us to pray with him?
Or to him.

3) Does Jesus have a God? Does God have a God anywhere except in Pagan pantheons?

4) Did Jesus too, need repentance and forgiveness, salvation? If Jesus were less than perfect, does that necessarily mean that he was unrighteous?

Please answer any combination of the above with Biblical evidence.

[Elijah John]

The "glory" spoken of in Matthew 16:27 is the same "glory" mentioned in Daniel 7:14. His glory is the basis of His judgement and worship.
A few of His apostles already had a "foretaste" of His glory (Matthew 17:1f.)

You ignored (again) Mark 14:62 and Luke 24:52.

You have a point. The New Testament teaches a subtle Jesus-worship, and explictly so in a few places.

Not sure I accept the JW explanation of degrees of worship though. This NT practice seems a clear violation of the First Commandment to me.

But Matthew 17.1 does not fit as an explanation of Matthew 16.28. The Transfiguration contains no angels, only Jesus, Moses and Elijah.

And no Kingdom establishiment in that Matthew 17 vision. NO dispensation of rewards and punishments. And the disciples "standing here" at the time of Jesus prediction have presumably all passed on, "tasted death".

So it seems that either Jesus was wrong, or the NT was wrong. The NT context is that of a "this generation" expectation of Christ's return. Paul, Hebrews the other Gospels etc...Still waiting.

And if it was Jesus who was wrong here, then there is no reason to believe he is God.

So the imperative to worship him is one that defies not only the First Commandment, but also Jesus own rebuke to the devil, quoting Hebrew Scripture: "worship only YHVH your God and serve only Him."

So I will grant you this, there are a NT few verses which support the notion that Jesus is God. There are more than a few that support the position that he is not God.

Rationality favors the "Jesus is not God" position. "Extraordinary claims", and all that...I see no "extraordinary proof" of his supposed Divinity.

I do, however, see plenty of evidence of his strong devotion the true God, YHVH though.

[onewithhim]

1) Was Jesus of Nazareth a fellow believer in YHVH God?
Or is he God himself, the proper object of belief and devotion.

2) Did Jesus teach us to pray with him?
Or to him.

3) Does Jesus have a God? Does God have a God anywhere except in Pagan pantheons?

4) Did Jesus too, need repentance and forgiveness, salvation? If Jesus were less than perfect, does that necessarily mean that he was unrighteous?

Please answer any combination of the above with Biblical evidence.

1) Yes, Jesus was a fellow believer in YHWH God. He came to "explain" him and carry out His will. ("These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God." Rev.3:14; "No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father's side is the one who has explained Him." John 1:18; "'My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will.'" Matthew 26:39)

2) Jesus taught us to pray WITH him. Nowhere does he tell us to pray TO him.

3) Jesus does HAVE a God. ("I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God." John 20:17; See also Revelation 3:12.)

4) Jesus did not need to repent or be forgiven. ("How much more will the blood of Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works...?" Heb.9:14; "We have [a high priest] who has been tested in all respects as we have, but without sin." Heb.4:15b.)


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[Faber]

1) Was Jesus of Nazareth a fellow believer in YHVH God?
Or is he God himself, the proper object of belief and devotion.

2) Did Jesus teach us to pray with him?
Or to him.

3) Does Jesus have a God? Does God have a God anywhere except in Pagan pantheons?

4) Did Jesus too, need repentance and forgiveness, salvation? If Jesus were less than perfect, does that necessarily mean that he was unrighteous?

Please answer any combination of the above with Biblical evidence.

2) Jesus taught us to pray WITH him. Nowhere does he tell us to pray TO him.

The fact that they did so in Luke 24:52 affirms the correctness of praying to the Lord Jesus.